# New Hampshire, the first "free state"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-hampshire-the-first-free-state/204932 "2003-10-01T15:33:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-hampshire-the-first-free-state/204932/1 "2003-10-01T15:33:03Z")
NewHampshire has won the popularity contest to become the Libertarian “free state,” according to this [Associated Press](http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-ny--freestateproject1001oct01,0,2599842.story?coll=ny-ap-regional-wire) article from [Newsday.com](http://Newsday.com). > [@](#): > > By KATE McCANN > Associated Press Writer > > October 1, 2003, 10:19 AM EDT > > CONCORD, N.H. – A group planning to relocate 20,000 people who favor limited government has selected New Hampshire for its revolution, a supporter said Wednesday. > > New Hampshire, whose motto is “Live Free or Die,” beat out nine other states as the battleground for what members of the Free State Project call the biggest experiment in democracy since the Revolutionary War. So - can it work? Will enough Libertarians move to New Hampshire, work with current N.H. Libertarians, and convert enough non-Libertarians now living there, to influence state and local government? I don’t think it will. I don’t think that 20,000 people can move to another state and keep their focus long enough to bring about this change. Other opinions? ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-hampshire-the-first-free-state/204932/2 "2003-10-01T18:16:07Z")
Well, I think they picked the right state to do it in if they had to do it, although NH’s rural character and relative ethnic sameness will skew the experiment a bit IMO. But how much CAN one state dismantle the federal strictures that it’s subject to? The drunk driving and speeding laws would just be the start–how about the school funding, court system, lead paint laws, etc. Will they cooperate with federal judges and officials (extradition, etc.) whose jurisdiction they’ll still be under? The Granite Staters I know are generally polite people and will probably just tune them out rather than oppose them. It’ll be interesting to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-hampshire-the-first-free-state/204932/3 "2003-10-01T19:08:07Z")
I lived in NH for 20 years, and while the “Live Free or Die” attitude is still strong in parts of the state, the southern tier of high tech towns has really shifted the balance. 20,000 new folks, even if they are very polically active, won’t have the desired effect. I suspect most of these folks will move in up north, where there is still a stronger Liberatian feel. But it won’t shift the elections down south where the population lives. And what will they do up north? The economy is based on logging and tourism. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-hampshire-the-first-free-state/204932/4 "2003-10-01T20:37:41Z")
As a libertarian I’m sympathetic to the goals of this project, but the logic behind it utterly escapes me. New Hampshire has more than half a million voters. Why will 20,000 new ones make a difference? More than 20,000 New Hampshirites voted Green in the last election, and they obviously don’t control the political culture of the state. I just don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-hampshire-the-first-free-state/204932/5 "2003-10-01T20:55:36Z")
Previous thread on this topic, back when Idaho was the leading candidate for Libertarian relocation: [Libertarians to infiltrate Idaho. Discuss.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=179645) ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-hampshire-the-first-free-state/204932/6 "2003-10-01T21:27:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jklann \* > \*\*As a libertarian I’m sympathetic to the goals of this project, but the logic behind it utterly escapes me. New Hampshire has more than half a million voters. Why will 20,000 new ones make a difference? More than 20,000 New Hampshirites voted Green in the last election, and they obviously don’t control the political culture of the state. I just don’t get it. \*\* And they don’t even have 20,000 yet. That’s the number they’re hoping for. Right now they have 5,000 that have “pledged” to move there. And I’m skeptical that a very large proportion of them will actually do it. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-hampshire-the-first-free-state/204932/7 "2003-10-01T21:39:01Z")
I think they’re counting on every libertarian minded relocatee to be very political active, and be able to convert about 25 – 50 natives to the just cause. Personally I find this to be highly optimistic. Still just counting the 20.000; a pressure group of 20.000 voting as a block is nothing to scoff at. I have been following them for some time, but must say I’m a bit surprised they apparently managed to get off the ground. Will be interesting to see what happens; how big a percentage of those that have signed eventually follow through with the relocation, and whether they’ll have any measurable effect. Also I’m still hopefully waiting for the day when the European free state project ([http://www.europeanfreestate.org/](http://www.europeanfreestate.org/)) gets some traction. [Previous thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=204549) . Also every time I go to the river, I expect it to run upstream. And when I die I want some warm clothes put in the grave, for you never know… - Rune ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-hampshire-the-first-free-state/204932/8 "2003-10-01T23:37:10Z")
If these 5000 (generously) ideologues all move into the same trailer park, they might be able to elect one of their own as mayor of somewhere. But, by the very nature of being reflexively anti-government, the cooperation needed to organize anything effectively on a large scale just can’t exist for them. “Libertaria” is a fun thing for the Ayn Rand junkies to encourage each other about in conversations, but don’t most of them put that aside when they confront the real world, long about sophomore year? ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-hampshire-the-first-free-state/204932/9 "2003-10-02T02:12:09Z")
Well, I suppose if you distort an idea enough, **Elvis** , you can draw damn near any conclusions about it you want. Whether these conclusions are actually _valid_ or not is an entirely separate kettle of fish. I am fascinated to learn that libertarians are _reflexively_ antigovernment (what, you think libertarians don’t think or something?), incapable of organization or cooperation by definition (apparently, the answer to the above rhetorical question is in the affirmative), and whatnot. It’s always a pleasure to see an informed and rational analysis at work; **december** would be proud. That said, will they make a bit of difference? Not bloody likely. ---
**Author:** ![Voodoochile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/898d66/32.png) [@Voodoochile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voodoochile)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-hampshire-the-first-free-state/204932/10 "2003-10-02T02:30:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*If these 5000 (generously) ideologues all move into the same trailer park, they might be able to elect one of their own as mayor of somewhere. But, by the very nature of being reflexively anti-government, the cooperation needed to organize anything effectively on a large scale just can’t exist for them. “Libertaria” is a fun thing for the Ayn Rand junkies to encourage each other about in conversations, but don’t most of them put that aside when they confront the real world, long about sophomore year? \*\* Well, you dont know much about Libertartians or Ayn Rand apparently, as Ayn Rand considered the Libertarians to be more dangerous than Communists. True self styled ‘Objectivists’ loath the Libertarian party. And the real world isnt in sophmore year; it isnt in university at all. Libertarians are at least a thinking persons party, so it seems evident youre better off not liking them. ---
**Author:** ![Voodoochile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/898d66/32.png) [@Voodoochile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voodoochile)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-hampshire-the-first-free-state/204932/11 "2003-10-02T02:36:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*If these 5000 (generously) ideologues all move into the same trailer park, they might be able to elect one of their own as mayor of somewhere. But, by the very nature of being reflexively anti-government, the cooperation needed to organize anything effectively on a large scale just can’t exist for them. “Libertaria” is a fun thing for the Ayn Rand junkies to encourage each other about in conversations, but don’t most of them put that aside when they confront the real world, long about sophomore year? \*\* Well, you dont know much about Libertartians or Ayn Rand apparently, as Ayn Rand considered the Libertarians to be more dangerous than Communists. True self styled ‘Objectivists’ loath the Libertarian party. And the real world isnt in sophmore year; it isnt in university at all. Libertarians are at least a thinking persons party, so it seems evident youre better off not liking them. ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-hampshire-the-first-free-state/204932/12 "2003-10-02T04:16:42Z")
Now there, you go too far, **Voodoochile**. I agree that **Elvis** hasn’t shown himself to be particularly up on libertarian thought or anything, but he is pretty clearly a thinking person, if a tad abrasive at times. ---
**Author:** ![Voodoochile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/898d66/32.png) [@Voodoochile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voodoochile)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-hampshire-the-first-free-state/204932/13 "2003-10-02T04:24:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by g8rguy \* > \*\*Now there, you go too far, **Voodoochile**. I agree that **Elvis** hasn’t shown himself to be particularly up on libertarian thought or anything, but he is pretty clearly a thinking person, if a tad abrasive at times. \*\* Then I apologize to him, and offer the excuse that perhaps in that regard, he and I are alike. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-hampshire-the-first-free-state/204932/14 "2003-10-02T13:37:17Z")
Voodoochile, I would suggest to you, strongly, that there is no history or evidence to support a belief that followers of Rand, or libertarians, either way, can organize effectively on a large scale. When has it ever happened? What were the results? Can, in fact, any philosophy of social organization not derived from reality survive contact with it? When and where? Is there any reason to expect success with this experiment, or is it just more navel-gazing mutual admiration by the True Believers? I believe in fact. If that comes off as abrasive to those with a tense relationship with fact, the shortcoming is not mine.