# New idea: Shoot, shovel, and shut up. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 2, 2015, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765 "2015-01-02T13:08:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765/21 "2015-01-02T18:15:52Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > That’s a felony offense in Texas if caught ([relevant Texas statute](http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/PE/9/42/42.092)). IANAL but I don’t see that is necessarily true from the statute. It forbids killing the animal in a cruel manner, or without the owner’s effective consent. I don’t think a quick killing shot is cruel or hunting would be illegal, and we are talking about feral cats and dogs so I don’t think there is any owner who can give consent. [QUOTE=saje] There IS actually responsible stewardship in between wanton (and lazy, IMO) shooting and PETA nutcases… [/QUOTE] Sure there is - non-wanton shooting is in there somewhere. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765/22 "2015-01-02T19:05:01Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Hardly a new idea. In fact, in my neck of the woods, I’d say it’s a tired old meme. It’s standard practice with mountain lions and wolves in many areas of the Pacific Northwest, often with wink, wink complicity of the locally-based law enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765/23 "2015-01-02T19:17:00Z")
I’ve shot numerous animals on my property that were endangering my livestock or generally being a nuisance. Bury them? Hell no. They normally go on the burn pile that’s lit. I’ve even shot a neighbors dog with a collar on it after he’d been warned twice after the dog was chasing the cows. I laugh at the person saying it would be hard to prove the animal was endangering the livestock. It was the dog’s word against mine. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765/24 "2015-01-02T19:24:32Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > \*I would also be very surprised if there were no guns on a farm. “Everybody and their mums is packin’ round here.” “Like who?” “Farmers.” “Who Else?” “… Farmers’ mums.” ---
**Author:** ![Whatever4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@Whatever4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whatever4)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765/25 "2015-01-02T19:57:23Z")
First thing I was told about keeping sheep. Just follow the 3 Ss when anything not a sheep enters the pasture: shoot, shovel, shut-up. I opted for guard dogs instead of a rifle. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765/26 "2015-01-02T20:54:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > IANAL but I don’t see that is necessarily true from the statute. It’s not a matter of opinion. That statute has been the basis for successfully prosecuting people for killing stray cats and dogs in the state of Texas. As for the lack of owner, that argument was tried in court and found wanting. If there is no owner, no consent was granted, at least as the legal reasoning goes. That no owner could possibly grant consent was immaterial. I suppose there’s room to argue about what **should** be the law, but there’s not really much question in Texas about what the law actually **is**. As far as practicalities, if you aren’t seen or heard, you’re probably in the clear, but many animal control people will say things that are similar to above - make it less tempting for animals to hang around your property. Killing an animal is a short term measure at best. The vacuum effect is real - some other stray will simply come in to fill the niche unless the underlying reason an animal has to come to your property is removed. ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765/27 "2015-01-02T21:02:06Z")
> [@grude](#): > > In my experience animal control will NOT come out or help with stray/feral cats. You can have a neighbor who is a animal hoarder and has dozens of semi-feral cats roaming around outdoors and they tell you sorry don’t with cats. No, animal control won’t handle cats as a rule, but there are TNR/rescue groups that will trap and relocate, or trap-neuter-release. In a barn/farm situation cats can be useful, and getting them spayed/neutered means the population will dwindle in a few years. TNR groups are good at finding homes for the ones who can be tamed, getting them out there to round up mom-cats & kittens in the spring can do a lot to reduce the population. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765/28 "2015-01-02T21:22:16Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > It’s not a matter of opinion. That statute has been the basis for successfully prosecuting people for killing stray cats and dogs in the state of Texas. [This](http://www.tdcaa.com/node/1529) is the first case I could find, and it is from 2007 and mentions that the law had been amended to include cats. And the person who “owned” the cats seems to have been trying to attract strays. > [@](#): > > As for the lack of owner, that argument was tried in court and found wanting. If there is no owner, no consent was granted, at least as the legal reasoning goes. That no owner could possibly grant consent was immaterial. Which makes no sense - a cat or dog with no owner is exactly the kind you want to get rid of, but can’t. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765/29 "2015-01-02T22:55:23Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > “Everybody and their mums is packin’ round here.” > > “Like who?” > > “Farmers.” > > “Who Else?” > > “… Farmers’ mums.” I see you’ve met prairie farmers. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765/30 "2015-01-02T23:12:36Z")
In Texas there is also a big problem with feral hogs. Those things are damn mean but quite tasty too. Anyone want 200 pounds of free pork? The neighbor who got in trouble , it was for shooting those damn geese. Those things arrive by the hundreds and stay forever crapping and eating crops. They will literally walk down a row and dig up and eat your corn. I’ve seen them totally ruin lawns and beaches. Remember a goose poops 4 times an hour. As for shooting, I like the air pellet rifle idea but also a .22 is fairly quiet. If neighbors ask tell them your target shooting. Feral cats? When we have caught them they are nearly all male and mean to the core. Feral dogs will run in packs and sometimes mate with coyotes and you’ve got one mean dangerous animal who’s not afraid of humans. On neighbors dogs. Sure occasionally they will get out and we are glad to help them get back home but if it keeps happening and they start causing problems, dont be surprised if they disappear. As for humans, we cannot stand illegal hunters and we’ve turned over some info to the sheriff. Sometimes I’ve caught evidence of some teenagers leaving beer cans and cigarette butts in my woods and I’ve had to do some asking around and they find someplace else. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765/31 "2015-01-02T23:17:52Z")
> [@mind\_the\_gap](#): > > When Mrs. Gap lived in the mountains above San Bernardino, she had a bear problem on occasion. Once a black bear charged her car and dented it. She contacted Forest Service and the Ranger told her it was within her rights to kill it if it showed up again. She declined. Bears were frequent there, poaching the apple tree and so on, as were mountain lions, bobcats and various other critters. We took the attitude that we were guests in there area and practiced a lifestyle that minimized our contact by not making things overly attractive to them. If wild animals cause you or your property or livestock damage I feel you have the right to discourage them but outright killing them may be more harmful than good. As \*\*Aspenglow \*\*pointed out, these animals can be useful in a general sense if you take measures to keep them from being a problem. Well we are talking the midwest and not California. Personally I think it would be awesome to see a bear on my land. Wildlife we see are deer, raccoons, squirrels, possums, bats, or skunks. Those usually are not the big problems. I’m talking about the feral dogs and cats and those damn geese. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765/32 "2015-01-03T01:23:00Z")
> [@mind\_the\_gap](#): > > When Mrs. Gap lived in the mountains above San Bernardino, she had a bear problem on occasion. Once a black bear charged her car and dented it. She contacted Forest Service and the Ranger told her it was within her rights to kill it if it showed up again. She declined. Bears were frequent there, poaching the apple tree and so on, as were mountain lions, bobcats and various other critters. We took the attitude that we were guests in there area and practiced a lifestyle that minimized our contact by not making things overly attractive to them. If wild animals cause you or your property or livestock damage I feel you have the right to discourage them but outright killing them may be more harmful than good. As \*\*Aspenglow \*\*pointed out, these animals can be useful in a general sense if you take measures to keep them from being a problem. I would have run him down with my car if he charged me. Bears that charge cars need to be put down. He may have been rabid. Seriously. I’m not just snarking at you. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765/33 "2015-01-03T01:52:58Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > It’s standard practice with mountain lions and wolves in many areas of the Pacific Northwest, often with wink, wink complicity of the locally-based law enforcement. Yes, but not always. One of the worst stories I ever heard was about someone who tried to do it legal. A neighbor who lives about a mile and a half away keeps goats and a cougar got one early one morning. She enlisted the help of another neighbor’s son to help her kill the offending cat. The young fellow followed the blood trail to where the cougar had made off with the carcass and buried it a little, which as I’m sure you know, they commonly do. Sure enough, the cougar came back and the young fellow killed it, then reported the kill to the Department of Fish & Game. Was it a problem that he was not the owner of the goat or the property? No. This is allowed by law. Was it a problem that he used the goat’s carcass as bait? No, this, too, is allowed. Was it a problem that the cougar was killed on a neighboring property, to where the cougar had dragged it? Maybe. I eventually learned that the game officer was willing to overlook this gray area – until the slayer asked if he might have the cougar’s hide for a trophy. At that point, the game officer decided the fellow may have baited the cougar with the goat in order to kill a cougar for its hide. That kid went through hell trying to clear himself of this erroneous conclusion. You can bet he’s a fervent convert to SS&S. Too bad, because all he had to do was move the carcasses back onto my neighbor’s property and all would have been well. This area is lousy with cougars. I lost a goat to one a few years ago but didn’t discover the loss in time to kill the cougar. Another neighbor is a government hunter and trapper. I heard he got it a day or so later. It’s bad when they get a taste for livestock. IMHO, sometimes the rifle is the right tool and often it is not. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765/34 "2015-01-03T01:55:10Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > I would have run him down with my car if he charged me. Bears that charge cars need to be put down. He may have been rabid. Seriously. I’m not just snarking at you. Bears bluff charge when threatened, or when encountering something that scares them. Bluff charges are part of interacting with bears in bear country, there’s no need to kill them over it. Now, that’s easy to say when you’re not the one being charged, but it’s important information to have when living or hiking in bear country. Bears can get rabies, but it is extremely rare, and unlikely to be the cause of a bear charging someone. There are many more likely scenarios. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765/35 "2015-01-03T03:15:13Z")
> [@saje](#): > > In most places it IS legal to shoot a dog that is endangering or harassing livestock or wildlife, but that can be tough to prove unless you’ve got shredded calves or sheep for evidence. > > I know a couple of people who got tired of trying to convince neighbors that their darling doggie could ever kill anything (despite proof of dead chickens, mauled sheep, and horses run through a fence) and took the SSS route. As sad as it is, I think that was their only option since Animal Control is virtually non-existent in their part of the world, the neighbors wouldn’t contain the dogs and flatly refused to believe that the dogs running livestock in the field was anything more than just a Disney-movie-fun playtime. > > Funny how a fence went up to contain the new dogs… We shoot dogs harassing our animals when we catch them at it. A call to animal control or the police, and the owners if it is not a feral results in a ticket, even though we are in the country there is still a leash or fence law in action. We can even theoretically shoot wild animals that are harassing, so if we still had sheep and the deer were coming in and taking their feed we could probably get away - not that we would. Hell, we have spent the last 6 or 7 years donating the occasional chicken and guinea hen to the local pair of eagles nesting on the property. I will say that way back in the 90s I did drop a cap on a woodpecker that pounded on the side of the house all day for the better part of a week. I was working nights and could not sleep with the damned thing and finally snapped. It got buried out in the woods. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765/36 "2015-01-03T03:45:16Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Bears bluff charge when threatened, or when encountering something that scares them. Bluff charges are part of interacting with bears in bear country, there’s no need to kill them over it. Now, that’s easy to say when you’re not the one being charged, but it’s important information to have when living or hiking in bear country. > > Bears can get rabies, but it is extremely rare, and unlikely to be the cause of a bear charging someone. There are many more likely scenarios. Bullshit. A bear that dents a car during a bluff charge is displaying extremely, EXTREMELY unusual aggression, and probably has some severe medical issue. Would you like a link? [2](http://www.bear.org/website/bear-pages/black-bear/communication/63-how-dangerous-are-bluff-charges.html) yeah. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765/37 "2015-01-03T11:43:43Z")
Am I the only one that read the thread title and thought it was supposed to be about strategies for dealing with James Bond? ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765/38 "2015-01-03T12:54:41Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > Bullshit. A bear that dents a car during a bluff charge is displaying extremely, EXTREMELY unusual aggression, and probably has some severe medical issue. Would you like a link? > > [2](http://www.bear.org/website/bear-pages/black-bear/communication/63-how-dangerous-are-bluff-charges.html) > > yeah. I just read the article and watched the video. Did you? It doesn’t say what you think it says. This “unusually aggressive” charging bear was afraid and bluffing. > [@](#): > > he video shows a research assistant repeatedly taunting her to rush at him while the lead researcher safely videotapes from behind a tripod. Again and again, Old 812 bear laid her ears back and rushed. Again and again, she stopped short and retreated, blowing loudly. At the end of each retreat, she clacked her jaws, which looks and sounds threatening but is an expression of fear. Bears that clack their jaws do not attack. She further showed her fear by running to the tree for protection whenever the assistant showed aggression. When he went after her with a canoe paddle, she climbed to escape. > … A few feet past the photographer, the assistant looked back at the bear and tripped. As he went down, the bear went through wonderful athletic gyrations to avoid touching him. She then retreated, as in the video, clacking her jaws and looking entirely fearsome. > > With all her bluff charges, Old 812 never touched anyone. People saw this unusual bear many times around residences and at a campground. She lived to the relatively old age of 13 before a hunter shot her in 1987, the year the video and this picture were taken. > > In all their dealings with bears, the researchers have never had a bear come after them and hurt them. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765/39 "2015-01-03T14:53:22Z")
I shoot cats around here all the time. The coyotes take care of the carcass within 24 hours. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765/40 "2015-01-03T14:59:45Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Now a neighbor who likes to blab and brag about doing this talked too much and the local game warden came out and issues a citation and took his gun. Is that the whole story? IANAL, but that doesn’t sound like “due process” to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-idea-shoot-shovel-and-shut-up/708765.md?page=3)