# New-ish "free speech" app, Parler **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 9, 2020, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109 "2020-11-09T03:40:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109/41 "2020-11-11T14:19:30Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > I don’t think the expression or advocacy of ideas–even odious and detestable ideas–should be in the same category as murder and stealing. Five years ago, 2015 and prior, I would have agreed with you. Since then I’ve seen the damage Trumpism can cause. Private entities trying to suppress outright falsehoods, even things that aren’t advocating directly for criminal actions, is something that needs to be done. Trumpism is just too dangerous to the future of humanity as a whole. I honestly believe that we came extremely close to Trump winning another term. Had Stacey Abrams decided to retire or take a private sector job after losing her 2018 election, it might very well have happened. Had that happened, it’s likely that humanity would be looking at a dystopian future. Banning people from social media for spreading lies about dead people voting in Wisconsin or postal workers in Detroit backdating postmarks and such is a small price to pay for saving the future of humanity. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109/42 "2020-11-11T14:27:31Z")
And who is going to be enforcing these rules? From your post, it’s not entirely clear to me if you’re _ **only** _ talking about “Private entities trying to suppress outright falsehoods” on their own platforms–which I completely agree with–or if you are going beyond that and advocating the _ **state** _ suppressing falsehoods and “Banning people from social media”–that is, if necessary presumably putting people in jail. Trump may not be POTUS for very much longer, but there are still a LOT of people in power (as governors and state attorneys general and local sheriffs and so on) who I very much do _ **NOT** _ want to give the power to coercively “suppress outright falsehoods” or to prevent people from “spreading lies”. Let’s remember which side it is that’s been screaming about “Fake News!” for the last few years. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109/43 "2020-11-11T14:39:21Z")
So states should suppress murder. But not those who call for mass murder and do what they can to put that into effect? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109/44 "2020-11-11T14:58:26Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > “killing people” isn’t really part of the ideology of “misogyny” is it? No, that would be one for the “suppressing” column. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109/45 "2020-11-11T14:58:42Z")
Should states suppress those who “call for mass murder”? No. (Especially since I don’t remotely trust **MrDibble** and company to actually have any kind of fair and reasonable definition of who is and is not “calling for mass murder”. We have already, right here in this thread, slid right past “Nazi mass murderers” to “Nazi mass murderers _and_ ~~male chauvinists~~ misogynists”–but not, apparently, Communists, or even garden-variety fascists). Should states suppress those who "call for mass murder _ **and do what they can to put that into effect?"** _ Well, that’s a totally different thing. Just because the Monster Raving Loony Party won the election (that is, they got 50%-plus-1 of the people who bothered to show up on some particular Tuesday to agree with their platform, to the extent of checking the “Monster Raving Loony Party” box) doesn’t, in any society with any kind of sane constitutional system, actually give the MRLP the legal right to start rounding people up and sending them to the camps. I believe in free speech, and _ **also** _ other constitutional liberties and human rights, and checks and balances in our political and civil institutions (an independent judiciary, federalism; a free press) to protect them. As much as I loathe Donald Trump, he has never actually come out and advocated for genocide, you know. So, for those of y’all advocating for “censoring Nazis”, either: 1. You wouldn’t have actually censored Trump and the Trumpists. And would therefore have prevented nothing of the shit-show of the last four years. _or_ 1. You would have made it illegal to advocate for things like differing views about immigration. I agree that Trump’s views about immigration are cruel, bigoted, and just downright _stupid_–hey, has Mexico finished building that wall for us yet?–but I’m not prepared to have people _locked up_ for advocated ideas even as idiotic and mean-spirited as those of Trump. I think we have enough Americans in jail already; not to mention that if we don’t manage to lock all of _them_ up first, we’ll have set the precedent and given _ **them** _ the power to lock _ **us** _ up–“Fake News! Liberal lies! ‘They’ Will Not Replace Us! LOCK THEM UP!” ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109/46 "2020-11-11T15:01:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@MEBuckner](#): > > > > “killing people” isn’t really part of the ideology of “misogyny” is it? > > No, that would be one for the “suppressing” column. So, then, you _would_ suppress all forms of fascism then? I don’t think there’s any form of fascism that doesn’t believe in “suppressing” its opponents. And at the very least, all forms of Leninist Marxism will also have to go. And a whole bunch of different religious fundamentalisms… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109/47 "2020-11-11T15:03:18Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > **MrDibble** pretty clearly is going beyond saying that Twitter or the SDMB are allowed, as private entitites, to have community standards, which they enforce by denying access to their respective platforms. Not in this thread, I’m not. This thread is about social media, and that’s what I’m addressing (and Myers was) - social media platforms not deplatforming Nazis… > [@MEBuckner](#): > > I don’t think the expression or advocacy of ideas–even odious and detestable ideas–should be in the same category as murder and stealing. They should be when the ideas are “these Jews/Gypsies/Blacks/gays should be murdered” or “women need to be forced to sleep with incels”. And we’re not talking about “ideas” here, we’re talking about publicizing the ideas in public forums. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109/48 "2020-11-11T15:05:33Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@MEBuckner](#): > > > > **MrDibble** pretty clearly is going beyond saying that Twitter or the SDMB are allowed, as private entitites, to have community standards, which they enforce by denying access to their respective platforms. > > Not in this thread, I’m not. This thread is about social media, and that’s what I’m addressing (and Myers was) - social media platforms not deplatforming Nazis… Yes, in this thread, you are: > [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@MEBuckner](#): > > > > Oh, and hey, **MrDibble** apparently _also_ wants to suppress his opponents! > > Damn right I do. Just like the police “suppress” murderers and thieves. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109/49 "2020-11-11T15:07:02Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > So, then, you _would_ suppress all forms of fascism then? I don’t think there’s any form of fascism that doesn’t believe in “suppressing” its opponents. Sure, if that’s a characteristic of all fascism, then yes. > [@MEBuckner](#): > > And at the very least, all forms of Leninist Marxism will also have to go Yes, all those holdout Leninists too… > [@MEBuckner](#): > > And a whole bunch of different religious fundamentalisms Ones calling for murder or oppression of women or the like? Sure. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109/50 "2020-11-11T15:14:02Z")
Scare quotes usually indicate sarcasm. It’s entirely a comment on whether what I’m proposing constitutes “suppression” rather than just enforcing the (supposed) established order, not an advocation for a broadening of the discussion. I _am_ in favour of some of these measures in larger society, but that’s not the subject of _this_ thread, and would constitute a hijack, so I’m not going to respond to any more debate on that tack even if you persist. Start a new thread if you want to debate me on where I think _government_ fails in its duty of protecting people’s rights when it allows racist speech. _This_ thread, I am _ **explicitly** _ telling you I am _just talking about social media_. Please keep that in mind when addressing my posts. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109/51 "2020-11-11T15:17:37Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I _am_ in favour of some of these measures in larger society, but that’s not the subject of _this_ thread, and would constitute a hijack, so I’m not going to respond to any more debate on that tack even if you persist. Well, all I’ll say is that _you_ started the hijack by throwing around words like “censorship” (and not in the context of saying “…of course Twitter not allowing some kinds of speech isn’t ‘censorship’!”) and equating speech you disagree with to “murder” and “theft”. In terms of the topic of _ **this thread** _–does anyone care to defend the position that this stupid new app or platform or whatever it is should be _ **illegal** _? ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109/52 "2020-11-11T15:17:59Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > You would have made it illegal to advocate for things like differing views about immigration. I agree that Trump’s views about immigration are cruel, bigoted, and just downright _stupid_ –hey, has Mexico finished building that wall for us yet?–but I’m not prepared to have people _locked up_ for advocated ideas even as idiotic and mean-spirited as those of Trump. I think we have enough Americans in jail already; not to mention that if we don’t manage to lock all of _them_ up first, we’ll have set the precedent and given _ **them** _ the power to lock _ **us** _ up–“Fake News! Liberal lies! ‘They’ Will Not Replace Us! LOCK THEM UP!” I’d have two different categories. 1. Planning violent acts. Things like the Michigan militia that wanted to “arrest” Gretchen Whitmer and “put her on trial.” 2. Creating deliberate falsehoods. This category would apply only to factual statements that are false and created to deliberately mislead people. I would include things that I already mentioned, such as claims that dead people voted in Wisconsin or that postal workers were deliberately backdating the postmark on ballots arriving after Election Day. I would not include odious opinions, unless, as above, they cross the line into threats. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109/53 "2020-11-11T15:18:36Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Should states suppress those who "call for mass murder _ **and do what they can to put that into effect?"** _ So only people who can divine the future can prevent genocide, is what you’re saying? Because the timelines between the calls and the actions don’t always leave a lot of wiggle room… ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109/54 "2020-11-11T15:21:35Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > I’d have two different categories. > > 1. Planning violent acts. Things like the Michigan militia that wanted to “arrest” Gretchen Whitmer and “put her on trial.” > > 2. Creating deliberate falsehoods. This category would apply only to factual statements that are false and created to deliberately mislead people. I would include things that I already mentioned, such as claims that dead people voted in Wisconsin or that postal workers were deliberately backdating the postmark on ballots arriving after Election Day. I would not include odious opinions, unless, as above, they cross the line into threats. Category one is already illegal, and has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Category two, _ **if** _ you are talking about making things crimes (as opposed to private social media platforms banning certain sorts of content) is deeply problematic. Among other things: If a MAGA-hat-wearing loser sincerely believes his nonsense, then I guess it’s not a crime, huh? And, again, this is a principle that could very easily be weaponized by authoritarians of all stripes. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109/55 "2020-11-11T15:23:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@MEBuckner](#): > > > > Should states suppress those who "call for mass murder _ **and do what they can to put that into effect?"** _ > > So only people who can divine the future can prevent genocide, is what you’re saying? Because the timelines between the calls and the actions don’t always leave a lot of wiggle room… So, we’re back to state suppression, and NOT just the policies of social media platforms, then? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109/56 "2020-11-11T15:23:57Z")
Of course private institutions can censor. There’s nothing in the definition of censorship that confines it to government actions. It wouldn’t be a First Amendment issue, but it will still be censorship. Perfectly cromulent word for it. I’ve already dealt with the fact that I wasn’t “equating” jack-shit. > [@MEBuckner](#): > > does anyone care to defend the position that this stupid new app or platform or whatever it is should be _ **illegal** _ ? Has _anyone_ said that? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109/57 "2020-11-11T15:25:51Z")
We’re talking about calls for genocide _on social media platforms_ and possible state suppression of same. At least, I assumed that was the context, since I’d asked you quite politely to confine it to that. But since you insist on … whatever the hell you think you’re doing… I’m just going to go ahead and skip your posts, then. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109/58 "2020-11-11T15:27:32Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > If a MAGA-hat-wearing loser sincerely believes his nonsense, then I guess it’s not a crime, huh? And, again, this is a principle that could very easily be weaponized by authoritarians of all stripes. I’d set it up similar to what drugs laws are currently like in some states. In places like Oregon, they won’t arrest you for having a small bag of weed for personal use, but would if they found you with a ton of heroin in a warehouse intended for distribution. Similarly I don’t think it’s helpful to criminalize someone’s crazy uncle Bob for sharing the latest MAGA meme on Facebook. On the other hand, the Alex Jones’s of the world should have to face some sort of justice for what they do. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109/59 "2020-11-11T15:32:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > We’re talking about calls for genocide _on social media platforms_ and possible state suppression of same. At least, I assumed that was the context, since I’d asked you quite politely to confine it to that. > > But since you insist on … whatever the hell you think you’re doing… I’m just going to go ahead and skip your posts, then. The topic of the thread is, social media platform A (or social media platforms A and B) ban certain kinds of content. So then, people go and start social media platform C. Can social media platforms A and B ban certain kinds of content? Sure they can. And then FascistBook and ReichsTwitter can come along and ban anything that _ **isn’t** _ fascist. Unless we’re talking about state suppression of speech, there really isn’t much to debate here. Social media platforms A and B are good–well, they’re OK–well, actually, they’re giant heartless corporations and I don’t remotely trust them–but anyway, FascistBook and ReichsTwitter are clearly vile and despicable. So now what? > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > > [@MEBuckner](#): > > > > If a MAGA-hat-wearing loser sincerely believes his nonsense, then I guess it’s not a crime, huh? And, again, this is a principle that could very easily be weaponized by authoritarians of all stripes. > > I’d set it up similar to what drugs laws are currently like in some states. In places like Oregon, they won’t arrest you for having a small bag of weed for personal use, but would if they found you with a ton of heroin in a warehouse intended for distribution. Similarly I don’t think it’s helpful to criminalize someone’s crazy uncle Bob for sharing the latest MAGA meme on Facebook. On the other hand, the Alex Jones’s of the world should have to face some sort of justice for what they do. Good lord. We’re _finally_ making some headway on ending the stupid War on Drugs–time to declare a War on Something Else! _That_ couldn’t possibly go wrong! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109/60 "2020-11-11T15:35:50Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Unless we’re talking about state suppression of speech, there really isn’t much to debate here. Of course there’s a lot to talk about beyond that - like, exactly _how_ badly is this going to fail, or what are the implications for keeping track of what the Nazisphere is talking about, or is this where Trump is going to move next. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-ish-free-speech-app-parler/925109.md?page=4)