# New Japanese Secy of Defense denies Nanking Massacre happened. Is this a credible position? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523 "2016-10-02T20:44:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/21 "2016-10-04T02:04:52Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Well, they ate some of the POWs. Yes. But then, they were starving in the vast majority of cases. AFAIK there’s only one POW camp commander who did that just for kicks. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/22 "2016-10-04T02:50:41Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yes. But then, they were starving in the vast majority of cases. Not what I read, but I am too lazy to look for a cite. At least that would provide a reason other than just for kicks. Tokyo Bayer hasn’t been screaming at me yet for mentioning that. I am surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Annoying\_Buzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Annoying\_Buzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annoying_Buzz)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/23 "2016-10-04T03:16:51Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > Maybe China should cut off all trade with Japan until they fire his silly ass. LOL > > psik [Her.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomomi_Inada) ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/24 "2016-10-04T03:33:47Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Exactly, and why the hell it isn’t viewed in the same light, I can’t understand. Because it wasn’t a true genocide. It was without question a horrific display of wartime brutality, but there was enough brutality to go around in WWII, including many atrocities committed by the Allies. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/25 "2016-10-04T04:30:46Z")
I find it remarkable that a post like this has gone completely unresponded to in its substance. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > When I was in university, in Tokyo, there was another student (a white American) who said that he had read some diaries from Japanese soldiers who were there during the Nanking Massacre. Sounds to be like the student was a dysgenic loser hoping to get some of dat trap boipussy by acting as a catamite for Japanese imperialist militarism. > [@](#): > > I make no claim to the accuracy of this information and have no cites. I am merely relaying something which is maybe true that an interested party could try investigating if he has an interest. If this was a thread about the Holocaust, would you have done the same with David Irving? Consider that Irving is far more knowledgeable about the Second World War and the Holocaust then some random weeb undergrad in Tokyo town is about the Nanking Massacre. > [@](#): > > So the way he explained it (if my memory is correct) was that officers of the Chinese army had a standing order to shoot retreating soldiers, and were armed well enough to be able to carry this out fairly effectively. > > When the Japanese army came, the Chinese soldiers in town realized that they were going to be massacred if they stayed and so they started to murder the regular citizens to steal their clothes and possessions, so that they could flee, under the guise of being a non-soldier. > > As said, I don’t know that this is true. And if true, I don’t know how large a component of the massacre it was. The Japanese were certainly rather horrific in general of their treatment of the people they encountered, so it’s plausible that even if the Chinese army did commit a large number of the deaths that if they hadn’t done so, the Japanese would just have done the same damage. What’s up with this “I don’t know that this is true”? People don’t say this about the Holocaust and Nazi war crimes-ie “I don’t know if this is true, but maybe the residents of Lidice were hiding anti-Wehrmacht partisans?”. Also this is a generally stupid way to go around hiding yourself considering it’s not difficult to steal clothing. > [@](#): > > It’s also worth noting that the Chinese government, after the war, proceeded to cause the deaths of ~40 million of its own people. It’s not like we’re really comparing a good country to a bad country. The people of China were doomed either way. Even if we accept that all deaths and rapes that occurred in Nanking were solely down to the Japanese, the Chinese has far more to apologize for, to the Chinese people, than the Japanese do. And of the two, Japan has come far closer to actually doing so. Are you even conversant with the basic modern history of China? You do realize that the government who did commit most of those postwar atrocities was the communist regime of Mao Zedong not the Kuomintang regime of Chiang that controlled most of China during the Second Sino-Japanese War? And again this is very bizarre logic that nobody would use with regards to the Third Reich’s crimes. One might as well say the Germans have nothing to apologize for to the Soviet people and that the “people of the USSR were doomed either way” because of Stalin’s repressions. This is even ignoring the fact that Nanjing didn’t happen in a vacuum-it being merely the most infamous of eight years (more if you count Japan’s pre-1937 aggressions in Manchuria, Shanghai, and elsewhere) of warfare caused by Japanese imperialism that killed tens of millions of Chinese. Finally, while this should constitute apologia for either of the tyrants, the death tolls of Stalin and Mao have tended to be exaggerated into the tens of millions but it is important to keep in mind: 1) only a few millions (at most) in each case perished from direct violence and 2) mass famines brought on by negligent and disastrous policies is where most of the deaths can be attributed to (although even here numbers tend to be exaggerated). > [@](#): > > Ultimately, there’s no rule that one side has to be the good guy and one side the bad guy. In that time and place, there were definitely only bad guys. I’m pretty willing to believe that Nanking could have been a shared atrocity (though I’d lean towards the Japanese being dominant, despite anything that the Chinese soldiers may have done). How generous. Maybe you’ll be even more munificent and accord the Nazis 80% of the blame for the Holocaust (the other 20% of course being attributable to Jews being Jews, supporting Bolshevism, and all that jazz). ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/26 "2016-10-04T04:34:25Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > It is true that there were mass civilian suicides on Okinawa and elsewhere (for example, Suicide Cliff on Saipan where civilians jumped to their deaths rather than be captured), and it’s true that those suicides were motivated by fear of worse treatment on the part of American soldiers. But those fears weren’t really based on their own treatment of POWs, which even if they knew about they wouldn’t have thought particularly bad - they were treated just the same by the Army. The book by an Okinawan historian I read (which, granted, was viciously anti-Japanese) stated that there were women who had served as nurses for the Japanese army and had seen the atrocities committed by the Japanese on their POWs, and that it was these women who encouraged the others to end it rather than be caught. I don’t know how well regarded the historian was who wrote the book, but it is at least a possible alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/27 "2016-10-04T04:39:49Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > How generous. Maybe you’ll be even more munificent and accord the Nazis 80% of the blame for the Holocaust (the other 20% of course being attributable to Jews being Jews, supporting Bolshevism, and all that jazz). If they were advocating a form of Bolshevism that encouraged mass murder, I think it would be reasonable to denigrate those individuals who held and argued for that position. There’s nothing generous about holding **all** mass murderers accountable for their actions. It is far more generous to pick and choose based on which side fits a particular story that is convenient. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/28 "2016-10-04T04:52:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Is anything viewed in the same light as the holocaust? By serious historians? Sure. The destruction of Cambodia is way up there. That’s even if we leave aside the Annihilation War in Anatolia twenty years earlier, various Imperial Japanese atrocities including the one we’re discussing, the Belgians in the Congo, the British treatment of Tasmania, various attempts to remove indigenous North Americans using smallpox, the Wars of the Protestant Reformation, some of the stupider Crusades, and the mopes who apparently knew they were hunting the great auk to extinction. 😛 The Shoah is a great go-to reference, but it’s very, very far from unique. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/29 "2016-10-04T04:56:54Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > If they were advocating a form of Bolshevism that encouraged mass murder, I think it would be reasonable to denigrate those individuals who held and argued for that position. There’s nothing generous about holding **all** mass murderers accountable for their actions. It is far more generous to pick and choose based on which side fits a particular story that is convenient. Some Jews may very well have committed other atrocities but that isn’t the question at hand here. You are saying that the Chinese had a role (though “probably” less then 50 percent) in the Nanking Massacre which is comparable to saying the Jews had a role in the Holocaust itself. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/30 "2016-10-04T04:58:08Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Sounds to be like the student was a dysgenic loser hoping to get some of dat trap boipussy by acting as a catamite for Japanese imperialist militarism. From knowing him, I can’t think of any reason to doubt what he said. I would mostly just doubt that it was a significant aspect of the massacre. It seems reasonable to assume that a Japanese soldier might downplay or even skip writing the bad things he had done, and play up the things the Chinese had done, in order to make himself feel better about killing the Chinese. More importantly, I could see such a story forming the basis for a denialist’s argument, and that is what the OP was asking for. Of course, it doesn’t explain the weeks of murders and rapes that occurred in Nanking. It would only explain a number of the early deaths, and as you point out, it’s an inefficient way to mascarade as a commoner. > [@](#): > > If this was a thread about the Holocaust, would you have done the same with David Irving? Consider that Irving is far more knowledgeable about the Second World War and the Holocaust then some random weeb undergrad in Tokyo town is about the Nanking Massacre. If this was a thread asking for examples of denialist claims and arguments about the Holocaust, would I describe some examples that I was aware of? …Yes? That is the stated purpose of the thread after all. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/31 "2016-10-04T05:08:04Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > From knowing him, I can’t think of any reason to doubt what he said. I would mostly just doubt that it was a significant aspect of the massacre. It seems reasonable to assume that a Japanese soldier might downplay or even skip writing the bad things he had done, and play up the things the Chinese had done, in order to make himself feel better about killing the Chinese. > > More importantly, I could see such a story forming the basis for a denialist’s argument, and that is what the OP was asking for. > > Of course, it doesn’t explain the weeks of murders and rapes that occurred in Nanking. It would only explain a number of the early deaths, and as you point out, it’s an inefficient way to mascarade as a commoner. Why did you not include that in your original post, making it clear that this is what a denialist claim might look like? It’s clear from the general thrust of your post where you bring up unrelated atrocities committed by later Chinese governments, and saying Japan “probably mostly” was responsible for Nanking that you weren’t just saying what denialist arguments might be, but by taking a pseudo-neutral position legitimitizing said deniers by essentially trivializing Nanking. > [@](#): > > If this was a thread asking for examples of denialist claims and arguments about the Holocaust, would I describe some examples that I was aware of? …Yes? That is the stated purpose of the thread after all. Would you make such statements without a disclaimer of disapproval and even saying it “maybe true” and something that is credible enough to warrant investigation? Would you immediately follow that statement up with paragraphs minimizing the Holocaust by bringing up Soviet and Western Allied war crimes and atrocitieis and even suggesting those governments have more to apologize for then the Nazis did? Would you suggest that Jews may have been responsible for a significant portion though not a _majority_ of the Holocaust? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/32 "2016-10-04T06:26:33Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I make no claim to the accuracy of this information and have no cites. I am merely relaying something which is maybe true that an interested party could try investigating if he has an interest. I’m an interested party, but I have no more interest in investigating this than I have in investigating if there was no Holocaust and any mass deaths of Jews was due to typhus outbreaks in concentration camps. There is a mountain of evidence that the Holocaust occurred, and there is a mountain of evidence that the Nanking Massacre occurred. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > But then again, I’ve also heard that half the Japanese military deaths were down to starvation. (I believe they said this in a CrashCourse video, but I haven’t been able to find a confirmation of this anywhere.) If they were dependent on stealing food from every town they took over, it would make sense that they’d kill everyone they encountered, rather than suffering them to starve. Likewise, they wouldn’t care much about POWs, since they’d be second priority to feed. This is as bad as passing off what you think you remember someone said they read. Actually, it’s worse; you make it a kindness that the IJA would kill everyone they encountered to spare them from starving. This entire claim is complete horseshit. Japan had horrible logistics during the Pacific War and sent troops into places where their ability to supply them was so bad that they couldn’t even properly feed them, notable examples being Guadalcanal and Imphal-Kohima. Even in these cases where there was starvation, it caused **far** less than half of the Japanese military deaths in the campaigns. That half of all Japanese military deaths during the entire war were due to starvation is an absolutely ludicrous statement. What the Japanese were doing in China had nothing to do with this absurd notion that half the IJA died of starvation and everything to do with the [Three Alls Policy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Alls_Policy): kill all, burn all, loot all. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I’m pretty willing to believe that Nanking could have been a shared atrocity (though I’d lean towards the Japanese being dominant, despite anything that the Chinese soldiers may have done). This is right up there with saying you’re pretty willing to believe the Holocaust didn’t happen, it was just some typhus outbreaks in concentration camps where the Nazis justifiably put all the Jews during the war since they were hostile to the Nazi government. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/33 "2016-10-04T10:10:48Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > …there was another student (a white American) who said that he had read … > > …(if my memory is correct)… > > …I don’t know that this is true… > > But then again, I’ve also heard… > > I’m pretty willing to believe… > > though I’d lean towards… You want us to take this seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/34 "2016-10-04T10:26:33Z")
> [@astro](#): > > The new Japanese Secretary of Defense [Tomomi Inada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomomi_Inada) Minister of Defense. > [@](#): > > is a supporter of the position that the Nanking Massacre by Japanese Troops did not happen. Of course she is. That stance plays well to her party’s leadership and to too large a segment of the population in her constituency. > [@psikeyhackr](#): > > Maybe China should cut off all trade with Japan until they fire his silly ass. LOL > > psik Her. The moron-in-question is female. She’ll get fired when her party is out of government. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/35 "2016-10-04T12:36:00Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > She’ll get fired when her party is out of government. Unlikely. Japanese politics doesn’t work like American. Besides, her party is always “the government” - more correctly I should say “is always elected”. But it doesn’t matter, Japan is controlled by unelected bureaucrats, not by elected officials. There is a strong wave of nationalism right now in Japan. The media (possibly spurred on by the government) has much of the public thinking that everyone is out to get Japan, to besmirch them, to attack them and to invade them. Revisionist history is small potatoes. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/36 "2016-10-04T14:37:16Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > By serious historians? Sure. The destruction of Cambodia is way up there. > > That’s even if we leave aside the Annihilation War in Anatolia twenty years earlier, various Imperial Japanese atrocities including the one we’re discussing, the Belgians in the Congo, the British treatment of Tasmania, various attempts to remove indigenous North Americans using smallpox, the Wars of the Protestant Reformation, some of the stupider Crusades, and the mopes who apparently knew they were hunting the great auk to extinction. 😛 The Shoah is a great go-to reference, but it’s very, very far from unique. No, not by serious historians. In the common understanding of Americans. Is there anything that is viewed in the same light as the holocaust? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/37 "2016-10-04T14:42:13Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Unlikely. Japanese politics doesn’t work like American. Besides, her party is always “the government” - more correctly I should say “is always elected”. But it doesn’t matter, Japan is controlled by unelected bureaucrats, not by elected officials. > > There is a strong wave of nationalism right now in Japan. The media (possibly spurred on by the government) has much of the public thinking that everyone is out to get Japan, to besmirch them, to attack them and to invade them. Revisionist history is small potatoes. Seriously, someone like Trump would do well there right now. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/38 "2016-10-04T15:02:50Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > The media (possibly spurred on by the government) has much of the public thinking that everyone is out to get Japan, to besmirch them, to attack them and to invade them. To be fair, China \*is \*encroaching on Japanese waters and North Korea \*has \*gone nuclear and still fires missiles in Japan’s direction. The world’s largest (Russia,) most populous (China,) and craziest (North Korea) countries are hostile to Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/39 "2016-10-04T15:06:18Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Revisionist history is small potatoes. I should have said: Revisionist history is small potatoes compared to what else is going on, but it is all part and parcel of the prevailing zeitgeist which is that Japan, who never did any wrong to anyone, is under attack from all sides, economic, military, and ideological, by the nasty foreigners. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/40 "2016-10-04T21:23:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No, not by serious historians. In the common understanding of Americans. Is there anything that is viewed in the same light as the holocaust? Oh, in that case, English rule in Ireland. And chattel slavery in the USA. Anything seen that way by WASPs and privileged Jews, specifically? No, probably not. But then, the WASPs were committing the atrocities I just named, and the Jews have understandable biases. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523.md?page=3)