# New Japanese Secy of Defense denies Nanking Massacre happened. Is this a credible position? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523 "2016-10-02T20:44:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/41 "2016-10-04T23:03:46Z")
[Removed for being irrelevant.] ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/42 "2016-10-05T00:38:31Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Oh, in that case, English rule in Ireland. And chattel slavery in the USA. > > Anything seen that way by WASPs and privileged Jews, specifically? No, probably not. But then, the WASPs were committing the atrocities I just named, and the Jews have understandable biases. Lets not leave out ritual mass murder by the Aztecs. Unimagined slaughter by the Mongols. The murder of millions of Chinese by the Japanese. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/43 "2016-10-05T00:56:57Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Unlikely. Japanese politics doesn’t work like American. Besides, her party is always “the government” - more correctly I should say “is always elected”. But it doesn’t matter, Japan is controlled by unelected bureaucrats, not by elected officials. > > There is a strong wave of nationalism right now in Japan. The media (possibly spurred on by the government) has much of the public thinking that everyone is out to get Japan, to besmirch them, to attack them and to invade them. Revisionist history is small potatoes. It’s been a decade since I was in Nihon and I’ve not kept up with the place the way I once did, but I’ve been reading periodically about laws restricting the press. This seemed to be something Abe was interested in when he became PM in 2006 but the LDP went through a bit of turbulence in the years that followed IIRC. Looks like he got his wish. Japan has always had an “us against the world” mentality – possibly since antiquity or at least since the Edo era, depending on when you consider the beginning of Japanese history. Japan is the _victim_ of WWII, not the perpetrator of atrocities. They don’t speak of apologies but of regrets - regrets of taking on conflicts they were unable to finish. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/44 "2016-10-05T01:02:59Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > It’s been a decade since I was in Nihon and I’ve not kept up with the place the way I once did, but I’ve been reading periodically about laws restricting the press. This seemed to be something Abe was interested in when he became PM in 2006 but the LDP went through a bit of turbulence in the years that followed IIRC. Looks like he got his wish. > > Japan has always had an “us against the world” mentality – possibly since antiquity or at least since the Edo era, depending on when you consider the beginning of Japanese history. Japan is the _victim_ of WWII, not the perpetrator of atrocities. They don’t speak of apologies but of regrets - regrets of taking on conflicts they were unable to finish. Yes, Abe has been on a mission to install his lackeys into key media and other government/quasi-government positions. The current head of NHK (national news) is a toady who has publicly stated that he will not allow criticism of the Abe government. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/45 "2016-10-05T01:15:32Z")
What is the function of the Emperor in modern Japan? ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/46 "2016-10-05T02:02:42Z")
> [@astro](#): > > What is the Nanking Massacre denialist argument? Does it have any merit? It has no merit to deny that the IJA committed atrocities at Nanking. It’s a matter of the scale, as historical fact, and whether the uncertainty of the scale is enough to think differently about the incident than ‘300,000’, or not. Anyone can read the wiki article on Nanking numbers: > **[Death toll of the Nanjing Massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_toll_of_the_Nanking_Massacre)** > > The total death toll of the Nanjing Massacre is a highly contentious subject in Chinese and Japanese historiography. Following the outbreak of the Second Sino-Japanese War, the Japanese Imperial Army marched from Shanghai to the Chinese capital city of Nanjing (Nanking), and though a large number of Chinese POWs and civilians were slaughtered by the Japanese following their entrance into Nanjing on December 13, 1937, the precise number remains unknown. Since the late-1960s when the first acad... A wide range of numbers, and a widely varying % of total deaths accounted for by the killing of Chinese military prisoners. But what’s most different and difficult compared to Holocaust scholarship is that so much of both the good and deliberately bad scholarship on Nanking (in both directions actually as to numbers) is by Japanese. Hardly any is from China, and relatively little directly from elsewhere. It’s as if there was a number for victims of the Holocaust from immediate postwar war crimes investigations, pretty much one sided from victim’s POV, and it was politically/socially unacceptable to re-examine, or researchers just weren’t that interested, anywhere but Germany; and later findings included those by German pro Nazi and Communist pseudo-historians, but also real historians. In fact Holocaust scholarship has broadened and deepened greatly over the decades with continuing consensus about basic scale, not the case with Nanking. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/47 "2016-10-05T03:34:37Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Because it wasn’t a true genocide. It was without question a horrific display of wartime brutality, but there was enough brutality to go around in WWII, including many atrocities committed by the Allies. By that logic, neither was the Holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![sarahdonahue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@sarahdonahue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sarahdonahue)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/48 "2016-10-05T05:27:57Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Asian version of Holocaust denial. My thoughts exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/49 "2016-10-05T07:23:26Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Unlikely. Japanese politics doesn’t work like American. Besides, her party is always “the government” - more correctly I should say “is always elected”. But it doesn’t matter, Japan is controlled by unelected bureaucrats, not by elected officials. When her party doesn’t get elected into power (and, yes, that’s happened before), then she won’t be in the cabinet. Yes, the bureaucrats run things, but they’re not the ones making the stupid commentary right now; it’s this particular minister of defense. > [@](#): > > There is a strong wave of nationalism right now in Japan. The media (possibly spurred on by the government) has much of the public thinking that everyone is out to get Japan, to besmirch them, to attack them and to invade them. Revisionist history is small potatoes. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/50 "2016-10-05T08:38:30Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > What is the function of the Emperor in modern Japan? From [The Constitution of Japan](http://japan.kantei.go.jp/constitution_and_government_of_japan/constitution_e.html): > [@](#): > > CHAPTER I > > THE EMPEROR > > Article 1. The Emperor shall be the symbol of the State and of the unity of the People, deriving his position from the will of the people with whom resides sovereign power. > Article 2. The Imperial Throne shall be dynastic and succeeded to in accordance with the Imperial House Law passed by the Diet. > > Article 3. The advice and approval of the Cabinet shall be required for all acts of the Emperor in matters of state, and the Cabinet shall be responsible therefor. > > Article 4. The Emperor shall perform only such acts in matters of state as are provided for in this Constitution and he shall not have powers related to government. > The Emperor may delegate the performance of his acts in matters of state as may be provided by law. > > Article 5. When, in accordance with the Imperial House Law, a Regency is established, the Regent shall perform his acts in matters of state in the Emperor’s name. In this case, paragraph one of the preceding article will be applicable. > > Article 6. The Emperor shall appoint the Prime Minister as designated by the Diet. > The Emperor shall appoint the Chief Judge of the Supreme Court as designated by the Cabinet. > > Article 7. The Emperor, with the advice and approval of the Cabinet, shall perform the following acts in matters of state on behalf of the people: > Promulgation of amendments of the constitution, laws, cabinet orders and treaties. > Convocation of the Diet. > Dissolution of the House of Representatives. > Proclamation of general election of members of the Diet. > Attestation of the appointment and dismissal of Ministers of State and other officials as provided for by law, and of full powers and credentials of Ambassadors and Ministers. > Attestation of general and special amnesty, commutation of punishment, reprieve, and restoration of rights. > Awarding of honors. > Attestation of instruments of ratification and other diplomatic documents as provided for by law. > Receiving foreign ambassadors and ministers. > Performance of ceremonial functions. > > Article 8. No property can be given to, or received by, the Imperial House, nor can any gifts be made therefrom, without the authorization of the Diet. Take note of Article 4. The emporor is constitutionally excluded from government. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/51 "2016-10-05T10:44:24Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > they’re not the ones making the stupid commentary right now; it’s this particular minister of defense… I don’t know if she has complete support from the rest of her party in this matter, but she has support from the people who matter, including Abe. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/52 "2016-10-05T11:43:25Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > I don’t know if she has complete support from the rest of her party in this matter, but she has support from the people who matter, including Abe. Abe’s support matters while Abe is PM. When their party is not the ruling party nor part of the ruling coalition, then the only way she’ll be in the cabinet is if the other party’s leader selects her. Seeing as she’s not in their party, that’s not quite likely. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/53 "2016-10-05T12:07:45Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > What is the function of the Emperor in modern Japan? His prerogatives are threefold : smile, wave, and shut the fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/54 "2016-10-05T12:11:28Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Abe’s support matters while Abe is PM. When their party is not the ruling party nor part of the ruling coalition, then the only way she’ll be in the cabinet is if the other party’s leader selects her. Seeing as she’s not in their party, that’s not quite likely. Yes, but I don’t see the LDP being out of office anytime in the next 20 years. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/55 "2016-10-05T12:48:28Z")
Thanks, Monty. Is it fair to say that while the Germans have a guy to blame WWII on, a guy detested throughout the world, the Japanese have no single person they can blame? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/56 "2016-10-05T13:20:10Z")
Well, the Germans (including some of my cousins over there) very well may want to believe they can blame WWII on just one man, but the fact remains that he couldn’t’ve done it on his own. When it comes to Japan, a number of people consider Hirohito as the main culprit, others consider Tojo the main culprit, and others blame the army leadership as a group. Personally, I think Hirohito deserves a lot of blame, but so do many others, both military and civilian, at the time. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/57 "2016-10-05T13:35:00Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Well, the Germans (including some of my cousins over there) very well may want to believe they can blame WWII on just one man That’s my point, they can believe that Germans are/were regular folks, it was that one bad guy who caused the whole thing. The Japanese, on the other hand, don’t have a fall guy; everyone has to share the blame. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/58 "2016-10-05T13:45:22Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Sounds to be like the student was a dysgenic loser hoping to get some of dat trap boipussy by acting as a catamite for Japanese imperialist militarism. That’s going to earn you a warning Qin. You should know better than to use this sort of language on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/59 "2016-10-05T18:00:38Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > That’s my point, they can believe that Germans are/were regular folks, it was that one bad guy who caused the whole thing. The Japanese, on the other hand, don’t have a fall guy; everyone has to share the blame. To be fair, “it was all Hitler” is a pretty dysfunctional approach to the history of that period, or the history of contemporary Germany in general. Besides, the Japanese have their own Big Bads - Tojo, Hirota, Itagaki, Doihara… ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523/60 "2016-10-05T18:30:24Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > To be fair, “it was all Hitler” is a pretty dysfunctional approach to the history of that period, or the history of contemporary Germany in general. Besides, the Japanese have their own Big Bads - Tojo, Hirota, Itagaki, Doihara… Yes, but I wonder if the Germans blaming Hitler makes the Japanese more defensive if they have no one guy to blame. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-japanese-secy-of-defense-denies-nanking-massacre-happened-is-this-a-credible-position/767523.md?page=4)