# New Joker movie (Joaquin Phoenix) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 3, 2019, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984 "2019-04-03T15:40:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984/21 "2019-04-04T14:11:58Z")
Hated it. The Joker is supposed to be a bad ass, not some creepy guy with an Oedipus complex. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984/22 "2019-04-04T14:23:35Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > Hated it. The Joker is supposed to be a bad ass, not some creepy guy with an Oedipus complex. I’m kinda in this camp. This humanizes him, whereas IMHO previous version he is a monster, plain and simple, which is his superpower, because humans are fighting him. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984/23 "2019-04-04T14:29:49Z")
There’s been so many versions of the Joker that it’s interesting to see how people have different ideas of what he should be. For me, the Joker is much more maladjusted oddball nerd with personality disorders than Navy SEAL wearing makeup. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984/24 "2019-04-04T14:40:07Z")
> [@planetcory](#): > > They’ve also made Aquaman and Shazam. I appreciate having a variety of tones to choose from. If the choice is between ‘heavy and flawed’ or ‘light and tight,’ _for me_, the former is a more enjoyable experience. Fair enough. I forgot about those. Your mileage varies, and that’s OK. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984/25 "2019-04-04T14:40:33Z")
Yeah, I don’t picture the Joker as a great fighter either, I meant bad ass in the sense that he’s usually three steps ahead of his antagonists sort of way. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984/26 "2019-04-04T14:46:41Z")
Looks interesting but I don’t know if there’s much story to tell outside of what’s seen in the trailer. If it’s just an origin/back story of the Joker being “innocent orderly good guy fights to stay innocent and orderly in chaotic evil environment, chaotic evil wins, end story” then there doesn’t seem much new here. Seems to need some more meat or sub-plots. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984/27 "2019-04-04T14:49:37Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > Yeah, I don’t picture the Joker as a great fighter either, I meant bad ass in the sense that he’s usually three steps ahead of his antagonists sort of way. Now, a flatulence problem I could get on board with! ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984/28 "2019-04-04T14:57:02Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > Yeah, I don’t picture the Joker as a great fighter either, I meant bad ass in the sense that he’s usually three steps ahead of his antagonists sort of way. Yeah, and I’m not seeing that yet. In fact, the way Joaquin talks as him, he sounds a little “slow?” ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984/29 "2019-04-04T15:06:44Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > I’m kinda in this camp. This humanizes him, whereas IMHO previous version he is a monster, plain and simple, which is his superpower, because humans are fighting him. Point 2 - seems like they are going for the “incel with mental issues goes postal”. The community of mental health sufferers LOVE when they use that message! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984/30 "2019-04-04T15:08:36Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > I’m kinda in this camp. This humanizes him, whereas IMHO previous version he is a monster, plain and simple, which is his superpower, because humans are fighting him. I’m open to seeing something deeper than “monster, plain and simple.” Of course, this is reading a lot into a trailer, but if there’s an element of “we as a society create the monsters that attack us” then that’s much more in line with what we’re experiencing as a society. ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984/31 "2019-04-04T19:50:57Z")
I did not like the trailer (or Aquaman\*\*, but for different reasons). I am well aware that Batman is an incredibly dark superhero, and the villains he fights should be equally dark. I loved Heath Ledger’s Joker _because_ he didn’t have a reliable backstory. The clothing he wore was custom, no labels, and no one had a clue who he was or therefore what his currency is - I love that. We don’t usually get reasons for the evil in life, it just is and the Joker was the crown prince of chaotic evil. This trailer seems to paint him as a sweet, simple guy that just wants to bring joy to people and he is slowly beaten and abused to the point of cracking into the Joker. That does not sound entertaining, at least not to me (I recognize that I do not speak for everyone else though:)). \*\*Aquaman missed the mark by not having a villain you could get behind (Marvel does that very well - Killmonger? The Kree?), and seems to always be shouting “MORE EFFECTS, MORE!” and forgets that we also need a story. So either the movie is physically so dark you can barely see what is happening, the story is tissue-paper thin (which is ridiculous because comics have some of the best storylines around), or they get so enamored with special effects that they forget that FX are supposed to _enhance_ a story. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984/32 "2019-04-04T20:19:58Z")
> [@Poysyn](#): > > The clothing he wore was custom, no labels Well, it’s difficult to buy a purple and lime green zoot suit off the rack. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984/33 "2019-04-04T20:39:44Z")
I’m not sold on it, but “Travis Bickle as the Joker” isn’t the worst idea I’ve ever heard. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984/34 "2019-04-04T20:46:20Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Is it risky to try and make the Joker a sympathetic villain? This could backfire. I know it’s lost me. I have less than zero interest in humanizing evil. ---
**Author:** ![Staggerlee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/staggerlee/32/3134_2.png) [@Staggerlee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staggerlee)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984/35 "2019-04-04T20:55:46Z")
I certainly think Joaquin looks the right age for the role, with just enough cragginess. And he plays loopy characters very well - he was good in that otherwise pretentious car-crash The Master. The trailer makes me think of Taxi Driver, and tangentially, King of Comedy. ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984/36 "2019-04-04T22:33:10Z")
PSHAW! Not if you know where to shop! 😉 > [@Jophiel](#): > > Well, it’s difficult to buy a purple and lime green zoot suit off the rack. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984/37 "2019-04-05T02:46:33Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I know it’s lost me. I have less than zero interest in humanizing evil. Man, I see what you’re saying but since it’s a movie and not real life, I tend to grant a lot of leeway in that regard, especially so if it’s a comic book villain. I just don’t see why it wouldn’t be good (if grim) entertainment that shows the layers, degrees and shades of gray of evil and how someone arrived there. ---
**Author:** ![caligulathegod](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/caligulathegod/32/9685_2.png) [@caligulathegod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caligulathegod)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984/38 "2019-04-05T06:48:19Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Well, it’s difficult to buy a purple and lime green zoot suit off the rack. > [@Charlie Murphy to Prince](#): > > We both know where you got that outfit and it damned sure wasn’t the men’s department. > [@Acsenray](#): > > I heard someone say that the politician is supposed to be Bruce Wayne’s father. I wonder if that will be a re-imagined Dr. Thomas Wayne (depicted previously as a philanthropist) or whether they’ll completely remake that character with a new name too. The child Arthur is making smile is supposed to be Bruce, himself. ---
**Author:** ![DerNils](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerNils](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerNils)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984/39 "2019-04-05T07:49:50Z")
This seems to go in the direction of the Comedian from Watchmen - the only one that gets the Joke that the world is Chaos, therefore no rules apply to him. With his mission to prove that anyone that tries to adhere to rules has just not encountered enough evil yet, and he needs to prove to himself and the world that anyone can be broken (like in Dark Knight). Interesting move, but villain protagonists are hard to do, especially in a comic book world. My big question will be, is this Joker supposed to be part of the bigger DC Universe? I hope not, because the kind of story they want to tell would not fit in well with the rest of their current Crew. If they are, hopefully they are a few steps away, like the Netflix TV Series were. There you could have a different tone because the Avengers and stuff were mainly Background noise. I hope nobody wants to bring this Joker on Screen with the current Aquaman… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984/40 "2019-04-05T07:57:13Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Man, I see what you’re saying but since it’s a movie and not real life, I tend to grant a lot of leeway in that regard, especially so if it’s a comic book villain. Naah, how we treat fictional villains definitely has a real-world impact on how we approach real ones. I have no problem with fictional villainy, but it’s the specific aesthetic choice to make villainy sympathetic that I don’t have truck with. This goes all the way back to 12 y.o. me and _Return of the Jedi_. **Fuck** that masked génocidaire’s redemption arc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-joker-movie-joaquin-phoenix/831984.md?page=3)