# New Malaysia Airlines Crash **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 17, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367 "2014-07-17T15:52:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Missy2U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@Missy2U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Missy2U)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/1 "2014-07-17T15:52:04Z")
It crashed in Ukraine. It’s on the news now. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/2 "2014-07-17T15:53:45Z")
It was shot down by a missile. [http://news.sky.com/story/1302864/malaysian-plane-shot-down-with-295-on-board](http://news.sky.com/story/1302864/malaysian-plane-shot-down-with-295-on-board) I wonder how the story will turn out and whether this could lead to a national fight between the Ukraine or Russia or some other country. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/3 "2014-07-17T15:55:16Z")
There are early reports that the plane was shot down near the Russian border, but it hasn’t been confirmed yet. Given Malaysia Airlines’ record it’s hard for me not to wonder if the plane wasn’t where it was supposed to be, but who knows. This is flight MH17, going from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/4 "2014-07-17T15:55:26Z")
Yes, those “insurgents” who somehow manage to have missiles that can shoot down an airliner at 30,000 feet. Wonder where they could have gotten that kind of hardware. Could be that neighbor to the East? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/5 "2014-07-17T15:55:30Z")
But whose? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/6 "2014-07-17T15:57:18Z")
Somebody really has it in for Malaysia Airlines.:eek: Nearly 300 people on board.:(☹ BTW, Who is guilty, the freedom fighters, the Russkies or the Government? None of them are exactly kittens here. ---
**Author:** ![willthekittensurvive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@willthekittensurvive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willthekittensurvive)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/7 "2014-07-17T15:59:17Z")
Do a lot of commercial airline flight cross Ukraine? ---
**Author:** ![Missy2U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@Missy2U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Missy2U)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/8 "2014-07-17T16:01:43Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > It was shot down by a missile. > > [http://news.sky.com/story/1302864/malaysian-plane-shot-down-with-295-on-board](http://news.sky.com/story/1302864/malaysian-plane-shot-down-with-295-on-board) > > I wonder how the story will turn out and whether this could lead to a national fight between the Ukraine or Russia or some other country. The news guy talking now said that on both Monday and yesterday, military planes were shot down (one on Monday, one yesterday). ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/9 "2014-07-17T16:10:17Z")
> [@Missy2U](#): > > The news guy talking now said that on both Monday and yesterday, military planes were shot down (one on Monday, one yesterday). The military jets were most likely operating at a far lower altitude than a commercial jet airliner. Are there any hand-held launchers that could hit a plane at 30,000 feet? If not, then it would have to have been a radar-guided system, launced from a vehicle or a fixed site. I’m hoping this might lead to a cessation of hostilities in the Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/10 "2014-07-17T16:11:58Z")
Bad luck that it’s the same airframe and same airline as the last air travel horror story. Gotta imagine Malaysia Airlines stock is dropping quickly… ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/11 "2014-07-17T16:12:47Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > The military jets were most likely operating at a far lower altitude than a commercial jet airliner. Are there any hand-held launchers that could hit a plane at 30,000 feet? If not, then it would have to have been a radar-guided system, launced from a vehicle or a fixed site. > > I’m hoping this might lead to a cessation of hostilities in the Ukraine. Cessation? Well, I hope you are correct. But I would think this sort of thing usually leads to big fights - maybe even a very scary war. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/12 "2014-07-17T16:17:01Z")
That SkyNews link says it was a Buk surface-to-air missile. [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system)shows a significant ground vehicle needed for it, as in a serious piece of military equipment, not something you could smuggle in for “freedom fighters” to use. How a Ukrainian official would know that so quickly is most easily explained by it being one of theirs. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/13 "2014-07-17T16:20:55Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > The military jets were most likely operating at a far lower altitude than a commercial jet airliner. Are there any hand-held launchers that could hit a plane at 30,000 feet? If not, then it would have to have been a radar-guided system, launced from a vehicle or a fixed site. > > I’m hoping this might lead to a cessation of hostilities in the Ukraine. It is being reported as a Buk missile system. Depending on the age either a SA-11 or SA-17. It is a sophisticated weapon system that is mounted on a tracked vehicle and uses a separate fire control radar. Both Russia and Ukraine have them. Homegrown insurgents don’t. Its not like a shoulder fired missile that would take a few minutes to learn the basics. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/14 "2014-07-17T16:22:03Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > The military jets were most likely operating at a far lower altitude than a commercial jet airliner. Are there any hand-held launchers that could hit a plane at 30,000 feet? If not, then it would have to have been a radar-guided system, launced from a vehicle or a fixed site. > > I’m hoping this might lead to a cessation of hostilities in the Ukraine. The Buk missile system can hit a plane at 72,000 feet. It’s not a hand-held, as\*\* Loach\*\* mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/15 "2014-07-17T16:23:57Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > How a Ukrainian official would know that so quickly is most easily explained by it being one of theirs. Or it being the only weapons system in the area that has that type of capability. And that Ukrainian military planes have been shot down using the same system. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/16 "2014-07-17T16:26:41Z")
I found out about this from George Takei’s post on facebook, of all things. He says it was shot down, but CNN is not going there yet. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/17 "2014-07-17T16:26:43Z")
Yes, it’s unlikely this was shot down by the Ukranian separatists. There’s a few possibilities and all of them are at least somewhat likely: 1. Overeager Russians, we’ve got some reported (disputed of course by Russia) instances of the Russian military shooting down Ukrainian planes. While the Russian SDMB Defense Brigade would deny this, the truth is it makes sense of course for Russia to do this since it is trying to destabilize Ukraine and hurt its military in favor of the separatists. There is a good history of the Russian military accidentally shooting down civilian planes by jumping the gun, and if anything the current Russian military is significantly less disciplined than it was in the Soviet days. 2. Plane crashed. The Ukrainian Interior Minister said it was shot down by a missile, but that’s not been independently confirmed. I believe the Ukrainian President just confirmed the plane crashed, but gave no further details. It’s entirely possible the plane crashed on its own. 3. Ukrainian Military, I actually view this one as less likely simply because I’m not sure what valid reason the Ukrainians would have for shooting at planes at all. Even if they thought it was a Russian plane, so far the Ukrainians have tried pretty hard to avoid any direct confrontation with Russia. It wouldn’t make sense for them to even be in the habit of shooting down suspected Russian planes. Since the separatists do not to my knowledge have an air force, you wouldn’t expect the Ukrainian military to be too busy shooting at planes for any reason. Anyway, what I think we can be sure of is this region which is basically one of the largest regions of intentional disinformation in the world at the moment, will probably never give us clear answers. I expect all sides to blame their adversaries and no one will ever know the truth, unless there is some undeniable evidence of something innocuous like mechanical failure/pilot error. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/18 "2014-07-17T16:27:58Z")
> [@willthekittensurvive](#): > > Do a lot of commercial airline flight cross Ukraine? If it is on the straight line route, they would not circumvent it unless there was some compelling political reason involving the country of the airline’s flag. The way American flights fly around Cuban airspace, but nobody else does. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/19 "2014-07-17T16:28:58Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I found out about this from George Takei’s post on facebook, of all things. He says it was shot down, but CNN is not going there yet. The AP is going there. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/20 "2014-07-17T16:29:16Z")
> [@willthekittensurvive](#): > > Do a lot of commercial airline flight cross Ukraine? If it is on the straight line route, they would not circumvent it unless there was some compelling political reason involving the country of the airline’s flag. The way American flights fly around Cuban airspace, but nobody else does. US airlines can, but they have to pay Cuba to use their air space, and most don’t (Somebody correct me if I’m wrong.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367.md?page=2)