# New Malaysia Airlines Crash **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 17, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367 "2014-07-17T15:52:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/121 "2014-07-18T12:56:22Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > I don’t know for sure, but given reports that the Ukraine army doesn’t have any missile system in the area that could reach that altitude, I’m not sure it’s possible to conclude that this missile was captured from the Ukraine military. Maybe they don’t have any missiles because the separatists took them, I don’t know. But I don’t think it’s cut a and dried at this point. It is known that on June 29th the separatists were boasting that they had stolen at least one TELAR vehicle from an Ukrainian base. This Russian article from “Vesti”, with date of June 29th, appears to be somewhat damning (translation of the headline: “The sky over Donetsk will be protected by means of ‘Buk’ rockets”): [http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=1741703](http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=1741703) Ukraine had basically “Buk” systems similar to the ones the Russians have (only older, and relatively less sophisticated). It is definitely not implausible that the rebels overran an Ukrainian base and got their hands on this kind of systems. The important thing here is who taught them to use the device. The two options are: (1) ex-military people from the Ukraine who might have defected to their side, or (2) “Advisors” coming from Russia (either active members of the Russian military, or people who “resigned their commission” and went to “help”). > [@Broomstick](#): > > The other thing needed is reconstruction of the wreckage., which can also give an indication of which part of the airplane was hit first. Will there be enough left to reconstruct that might give even some information…? More pertinently, will it be even possible to gather the bits and pieces wholly without interference from parties that might be interested in hiding certain things? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/122 "2014-07-18T13:00:20Z")
> [@](#): > > An adviser to Ukrainian Minister of Internal Affairs Anton Heraschenko was quoted by Ukraine’s Interfax news agency Friday as saying that the missile launcher used to down the Malaysian plane is already in Russia and will be destroyed. > > The “Buk” launcher, as well as the flight data recorders from MH17, were handed over to Russian agents across the border at a checkpoint in the Luhansk area overnight, Heraschenko claimed, citing Ukrainian intelligence sources. > **[Monitors find confusion, hostility at Malaysia Airlines crash site | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2014/07/18/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1)** > > International monitors investigating the Malaysia Airlines crash in eastern Ukraine said Friday the team was not given full access to the site. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/123 "2014-07-18T13:18:07Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > True. They were in financial trouble BEFORE the disappearance of 370, worse after, and now this. Too bad, because I’ve been impressed by their comfort and service on the six occasions I’ve flown with them. At this point, I’d be impressed by simply reaching my destination. Sorry, I’ll let myself out. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/124 "2014-07-18T14:00:55Z")
> [@chelovek](#): > > We’d all like to do something, but what that something should be is no easy question. > > Russia is no Afghanistan or Iraq. Military action is out of the question, unless anyone fancies WWIII with a side serving of nuclear holocaust for all. > > That leaves political, economic and media pressure, which is not sexy enough to satisfy the outrage and does not give tangible results quickly. > > Even that kind of pressure has its limits. European economy is inextricably intertwined with Russia’s through at least the gas and oil imports. There is only so far Europe can push Russia before it begins to seriously hurt itself. > > To sever this link would take years if not decades. It is also very questionable whether ‘punishing’ Russia by ostracising it would improve Russia’s posture towards the West. Take North Korea - a pariah for decades and still no friendlier or less dangerous than it was at the beginning. > > At least while Russia has serious money in the European game it has some incentive to maintain a certain bare minimum of goodwill and decorum. If Russia is completely cut out by Europe, where is any incentive to be even a minimally good neighbour? > > This kind of outrage always calls for decisive action. But it is very difficult to think of decisive action that would also be the right action when judged in the cold light of day. > > I don’t have the answer. Hopefully somebody does. We can say, “Niet! Bad Russia!” And spray them a few times with a water bottle. ---
**Author:** ![AaronX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7bcc69/32.png) [@AaronX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AaronX)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/125 "2014-07-18T14:01:26Z")
It’s just horrible. Logically, this could have happened to any airline, but the 2 events to MH seem very coincidental. ---
**Author:** ![This\_Just\_In\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@This\_Just\_In\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_Just_In_2)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/126 "2014-07-18T15:07:16Z")
> [@AaronX](#): > > It’s just horrible. Logically, this could have happened to any airline, but the 2 events to MH seem very coincidental. I don’t think it is purely just horrible luck that this happened to Malaysia Airlines - they may be also accountable to the relatives of the passengers due to negligence. Their pilots flew a risky flight path by flying over a known war zone that media accounts state many other airlines have made their pilots avoid since early June. The airline could have instructed their pilots to avoid it as well. Any justification that this was the most economical route will have to explain why [this same plane flew different routes between the same two cities the entire week preceding](http://dubhrosa.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/mh17-crashed-in-ukraine-on-17th-july.html)which avoided the conflict area. Presumably fuel costs were a concern on those flights as well. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/127 "2014-07-18T15:15:39Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Guess Russia took a page out of the USSR’s playbook in KAL 007, grab the black box, if it doesn’t say anything good, sit on it. The black box was sent to Russia? I expect it will have signed a full confession within a week. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/128 "2014-07-18T15:23:20Z")
How is this for chutzpah? Putin blames Ukraine because the plane went down in Ukrainian terrory - this, while he’s arming and supporting the rebels who most likely shot it down, and whose goal is to dispute Ukrainian control over that same territory! > [@](#): > > “And without doubt the government of the territory on which it happened bears responsibility for this frightening tragedy,” he said, adding that he had urged the Russian authorities to do everything possible to help with the investigation into the incident. > **[Putin Blames Malaysia Plane Crash On Ukraine](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/putin-ukraine-malaysia_n_5597094)** > > Putin Blames Malaysia Plane Crash On Ukraine ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/129 "2014-07-18T15:28:47Z")
> [@slumtrimpet](#): > > And in addition I’d venture to guess that the separatists have enough expertise (via former military?) to operate the stuff as well. Enough at least to give Russia plausible deniability. So both sides - Ukraine and Russia - are technically squawking correctly when they claim it wasn’t them. The separatists; not so much IMO. This is something I’ve been wondering about. Why are we assuming that the seperatists must have been trained by Russia? If a sizeable minority of Ukraine’s population is ethnically Russian, then certainly that applies to the military as well? A good chunk of the seperatists (if not most of them) are probably former members of the Ukrainian military who deserted their positions to join the seperatists. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/130 "2014-07-18T15:55:07Z")
Yes, it is plausible that it would be “home” irregulars using seized equipment, I would not be surprised if whole units’ worth of personnel defected early in the insurrection. Even so at the least Russia would bear a degree of moral responsibility for having let the insurgents operate under the premise “Russia’s got our back no matter what” from the start. The anti-air campaign had heated up lately and that may have indicated an emboldening. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/131 "2014-07-18T16:02:02Z")
> [@This\_Just\_In\_2](#): > > I don’t think it is purely just horrible luck that this happened to Malaysia Airlines - they may be also accountable to the relatives of the passengers due to negligence. Their pilots flew a risky flight path by flying over a known war zone that media accounts state many other airlines have made their pilots avoid since early June. The airline could have instructed their pilots to avoid it as well. > > Any justification that this was the most economical route will have to explain why [this same plane flew different routes between the same two cities the entire week preceding](http://dubhrosa.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/mh17-crashed-in-ukraine-on-17th-july.html)which avoided the conflict area. Presumably fuel costs were a concern on those flights as well. > **[Who, what, why: How often do planes fly over conflict zones?](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-28364306)** > > Who decides where it's safe to fly? ‘According to Flight radar24, which monitors live flight paths, the airlines that most frequently flew over Donetsk in eastern Ukraine in the last week were: Aeroflot 86 (flights), Singapore Airlines 75, Ukraine International Airlines 62, Lufthansa 56, and Malaysian 48. It was not necessarily a risky approach. The chance of a rocket reaching above 32,000 feet was considered remote, says Sylvia Spruck Wrigley, author of Why Planes Crash.’ So it seems likely Malaysia was just unlucky and it could have been a plane from one of several other airlines. ---
**Author:** ![This\_Just\_In\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@This\_Just\_In\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_Just_In_2)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/132 "2014-07-18T16:18:36Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > So it seems likely Malaysia was just unlucky and it could have been a plane from one of several other airlines. Absolutely it could have been a different airlines plane, but that won’t resolve them having to lawyer up and disprove negligence. Some airlines avoided the area - some didn’t. By examining the facts available to airlines prior to yesterday the courts (not the internet) will now have to decide what was reasonable prudence. However I wouldn’t be buying stock in MA right now. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/133 "2014-07-18T16:21:58Z")
> [@This\_Just\_In\_2](#): > > Absolutely it could have been a different airlines plane, but that won’t resolve them having to lawyer up and disprove negligence. Some airlines avoided the area - some didn’t. By examining the facts available to airlines prior to yesterday the courts (not the internet) will now have to decide what was reasonable prudence. However I wouldn’t be buying stock in MA right now. I would not buy stock anyway. Regardless of the legalities of the situation, I predict that the public will stay away from this airline in droves - despite the fact that the two incidents were a complete coincidence. I saw a small article in the paper today about how the airline likely will not survive. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/134 "2014-07-18T16:46:17Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I would not buy stock anyway. Regardless of the legalities of the situation, I predict that the public will stay away from this airline in droves - despite the fact that the two incidents were a complete coincidence. > > I saw a small article in the paper today about how the airline likely will not survive. It’s not their fault, but it does seem pretty much inevitable that Malaysia Airlines is going to develop a reputation as a real-life version of Oceanic Airlines, and end up going down the tubes. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/135 "2014-07-18T17:06:34Z")
> [@AaronX](#): > > It’s just horrible. Logically, this could have happened to any airline, but the 2 events to MH seem very coincidental. Once is accidental, second is coincidence, three times is enemy action. So yes, we are well into coincidence range. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/136 "2014-07-18T17:20:06Z")
Despite all signs pointing to pro-Russian rebels in what seems like a case of mistaken ID, what’s the likelihood they were given “orders” by Russia to strike that specific plane? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/137 "2014-07-18T17:36:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Ready for this story to get more awful? Me either. [It’s being reported that there were dozens of AIDS researchers and activists on the plane on their way to a medical conference in Australia.](http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/aids-conference-attendees-downed-malaysian-jet-24611650) > [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > I just saw that reported by MSF/Doctors Without Borders; there may have been 100 researchers/activists/etc. by that report. Just horrifying. I’m sensing a new conspiracy theory in the making, this one involving Big Pharma. After MH370, a Malay lady of my acquaintance who last lived in Malaysia (she’s been a Brit for decades) told me many Malaysians would be blaming witch doctors and black magic. Guess this will confirm it for them. I know a Brit scheduled to fly London-Bangkok on Malaysia Airlines next month. He’s not planning to change his ticket, which he bought before this latest tragedy. But this may be the death knell for the carrier. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/138 "2014-07-18T17:43:00Z")
> [@This\_Just\_In\_2](#): > > Any justification that this was the most economical route will have to explain why [this same plane flew different routes between the same two cities the entire week preceding](http://dubhrosa.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/mh17-crashed-in-ukraine-on-17th-july.html)which avoided the conflict area. Presumably fuel costs were a concern on those flights as well. Storms and/or headwinds. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/139 "2014-07-18T17:46:43Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Despite all signs pointing to pro-Russian rebels in what seems like a case of mistaken ID, what’s the likelihood they were given “orders” by Russia to strike that specific plane? 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% Jesus, what is it with all these people who desperately want to believe Russia is some kind of comic book supervillain? Fuckups exactly like this have happened several times over the years. Just off the top of my head, the US Navy shot down an Iranian passenger jet, the Russian air force shot down a Korean passenger jet, and somebody (Ukraine?) shot down a Russian passenger jet. It’s an accident. A really reprehensible accident, but still an accident. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367/140 "2014-07-18T17:49:06Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I’m sensing a new conspiracy theory in the making, this one involving Big Pharma. I don’t think people even bother coming up with those kinds of conspiracy theories anymore. (I am probably wrong but I refuse to Google it.) These days everything is a false flag intended to distract us from something else. It’s like the NWO has ADHD. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-malaysia-airlines-crash/693367.md?page=8)