# New McCain Doctrine: Preemptive lying **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 20, 2008, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405 "2008-09-20T05:06:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405/81 "2008-09-20T16:15:28Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > So, since you can’t rule out the possibility that I heard somebody say “ **Stratocaster** goes around sniffing little girls’ bicycle seats”, then I have free license to say “I heard that **Stratocaster** goes around sniffing little girls’ bicycle seats”? :rolleyes: It means I couldn’t assume you were lying, yes. (About hearing about it, that is. Those bicycle seat rumors were vile lies, I can assure you. Lies!) Feel free to roll your eyes to your heart’s content. Honestly, it’s hard to believe this is such a difficult point to grasp. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405/82 "2008-09-20T16:17:22Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I would say that if it is highly likely they are lying, we should call them liars. In this particular case, I believe it is extremely likely that McCain’s camp were lying - that is, they knew for an absolute fact that Obama was not going to say any such thing, but they planned on sticking their comment out there because they knew that a non-discerning media just prints what they are given. And you believe this based on what? Your spider-sense? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405/83 "2008-09-20T16:19:05Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > Why not? They claimed they’d “heard” it somewhere. Where? Tell us. Why was it even necessary to claim that they had a mystery source? A simple “Should Obama’s campaign choose to distort this event…” would have sufficed. If McCain wants to put words in Obama’s mouth, he should be prepared to give citations. Why? Because you demand them? What if they want to keep their mole unnamed, eh? > [@](#): > > If the last administration should have taught us anything, it’s that these sorts of claims should never be taken at face value. When Obama’s campaign steps up and claims “they’ve heard” that McCain is going to accuse him of being a secret mime, people should respond the same way. “You lie, Obama campaign. You lie so bad with your magic psychic future vision.” I won’t. But I’m a man of rare integrity. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405/84 "2008-09-20T16:25:48Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Why? Because you demand them? Yeah, basically. He’s applying for a job from me, after all. > [@](#): > > What if they want to keep their mole unnamed, eh? Then they either phrase it like I did, keeping it hypothetical, or they say “We’ve heard from our unnamed mole in the Obama campaign, who we’ve been able to place because his people are so lax in security, that…” > [@](#): > > I won’t. But I’m a man of rare integrity. Sadly we can’t assume that candidates for President, or indeed the President himself, share your standards. ETA: Come to think of it, the “unnamed mole” claim sort of brings us back to square one. I suppose it’s possible that McCain could provide proof of the existence of a mole without outing them-- nude pictures of Obama’s birthmark or the like. But it’s probably more sensible to run with the “hypothetical” approach. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405/85 "2008-09-20T16:28:18Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > Yeah, basically. He’s applying for a job from me, after all. True, he is. But an unwillingness to meet your demands is not the same as lying. > [@](#): > > Then they either phrase it like I did, keeping it hypothetical, or they say “We’ve heard from our unnamed mole in the Obama campaign, who we’ve been able to place because his people are so lax in security, that…” It was inelegantly phrased. > [@](#): > > Sadly we can’t assume that candidates for President, or indeed the President himself, share your standards. It’s a high hurdle though. I’m a living saint, really. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405/86 "2008-09-20T16:31:46Z")
Well, the point is that it’s not unreasonable to assume the McCain camp is lying, even if we don’t know for sure one way or the other. They could trot out the source of the rumor, and he/she could be someone reasonably reliable, and we’d have to take a step back and say something like, “Well, I’ll be a monkey’s uncle. They were telling the truth!” But that seems unlikely at this point. So, all other things being equal, it’s at least reasonable to be skeptical. Skepticism is reinforced because 1) the Republicans now have a long, proven history of misrepresentation in the public sphere, and 2) McCain’s campaign has been lying quite gratuitously about other issues, especially distorting Obama’s record and willfully misinterpreting his statements. In other words, our judgment is also based on past behavior. This whole nitpick about lying vs. not-lying strikes me as a bit of a red-herring, anyway. But I will concede, for what it’s worth, that no one can claim with 100% certainty that we know for a fact McCain’s campaign is lying. If I were write… > [@](#): > > _Intelligence gathered by this and other Dopers leaves no doubt that the McCain campaign continues to lie and deceive about what Barack Obama will say tomorrow._ …well, then _I’d_ be lying. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405/87 "2008-09-20T16:37:57Z")
Isn’t it sort of elementary-school logic to say “I heard someone say X” as your defense? Honestly, your best defense of the McCain campaign is a little kid’s illogic? Well, if that’s how we’re going to do it, Obama calls **dibs** on the presidency! Top that! And Biden calls **shotgun!** Sailboat ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405/88 "2008-09-20T18:10:37Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Isn’t it sort of elementary-school logic to say “I heard someone say X” as your defense? Defense of what? That’s what they asserted to begin with, it’s not their defense of anything. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405/89 "2008-09-20T18:21:00Z")
Oh look, an entire thread consisting of arguing with a troll. Good job, guys. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405/90 "2008-09-20T18:29:48Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Defense of what? That’s what they asserted to begin with, it’s not their defense of anything. As a preemptive defense against being wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405/91 "2008-09-20T18:32:25Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Defense of what? That’s what they asserted to begin with, it’s not their defense of anything. In defense of McCain’s stupid claim that he would fire the head of the SEC. And their equally stupid rebuttal to criticism about that claim which equates firing with “requesting to resign”. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405/92 "2008-09-20T18:34:50Z")
All I’m going to add to this is that I heard McCain was planning to lie about what he heard Barack Obama was going to say. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405/93 "2008-09-20T18:40:50Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > In defense of McCain’s stupid claim that he would fire the head of the SEC. And their equally stupid rebuttal to criticism about that claim which equates firing with “requesting to resign”. I understand why they lobbed that grenade at the Obama camp. But I took Sailboat’s post to mean McCain was defending the charge of lying by saying, “I heard it from someone.” “I heard it from someone” isn’t his defense against anything, it’s what his camp claimed to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405/94 "2008-09-20T18:45:21Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > All I’m going to add to this is that I heard McCain was planning to lie about what he heard Barack Obama was going to say. I demand that you tell me who you heard that from or risk being branded with a scarlet “L.” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405/95 "2008-09-20T18:50:01Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I demand that you tell me who you heard that from… And divulge a source? NEVER!! > [@](#): > > or risk being branded with a scarlet “L.” 😉 Librarian? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405/96 "2008-09-20T18:59:10Z")
If The McCain campaign really has a mole inside the Obama campaign, I like **MEBuckner’s** idea of using it as a way to start feeding false leads to the McCain camp. Just keep feeding them crazier and crazier shit. There’s no downside. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405/97 "2008-09-20T19:00:06Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > And you believe this based on what? Your spider-sense? Now that would be just silly! However, I did HEAR that McCain’s team were lying. And since you cannot be 100% sure that I did not, you must give me the benefit of the doubt. Also, you have no right to ask me who I heard it from. You must just trust me. Therefore, by your own reasoning, they were both lying and not lying at the same time, and you will therefore disappear in a puff of logic. (Also, when McCain’s team pinky swore that they “heard it”, I saw that their fingers were crossed, and therefore we’re all going to give them atomic wedgies after school.) ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405/98 "2008-09-20T19:01:49Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > And divulge a source? NEVER!!Librarian? Lumberjack. But that’s OK. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405/99 "2008-09-20T19:06:23Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You, sir, are a fucking idiot. Let met count the ways: > > 1. I was not defending McCain. > 2. McCain is not “my boy.” > 3. And then, after all that, you actually agreed with what I said. Jesus. > 4. I’ve already acknowledged that. Oh, fuck you. I’ve seen this dance far too often long before you showed up. You might agree with the OP, but you don’t want to acknowledge it, so you latch onto bullshit semantics. Your first post had nothing about saying McCain screwed up, just a kneejerk semantics defense. I swear, if the news came out that McCain had kicked a dog and someone started a thread titled “McCain kicks puppy!” there’d be someone in there arguing that since the dog was two years old it wasn’t _really_ a puppy any more, as if that made it okay. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405/100 "2008-09-20T19:18:10Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Lumberjack. But that’s OK. That’s it. Off to the corner with you. Just sit there and think about what you’ve done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-mccain-doctrine-preemptive-lying/464405.md?page=6)