New MD law forces Wal-Mart to provide health coverage - Fair or not?

??? Your terminology does not make any business sense, at least not to me, the competitive edge any business any employer could gain via benefits is a cost advantage, has nothing to do with revenues. I’m guessing you are really suggesting that the whole bundle of medical costs would be cheaper under a UHC. Maybe true, maybe not. But one thing if for certain, the main reason you haven’t seen progress on this issue is that everyone seems to believe that better health care for all is a good idea as long as someone else has to pay for it.

??? Your terminology regarding supply and demand (as used in the general business sense) in a little faulty. Other than the malpractice insurance, which can and does drive doctors out of the profession, every factor you mentioned is a demand issue. The demand is created because the user pays so little of the direct cost, the service seems far cheaper to the user than it actually is. That is why the pharmaceutical companies are succesful marketers, ‘just ask your doctor’. Compared to nearly any other service, there is very little price constraint. Medical services are generally availiable to everyone, except for the ability to pay, that makes it a demand issue.

From a business perspective sure it can, business can easily keep cutting benefits, changing hiring practices, finding other mechanisms to fund benefits, etc. The debate, as it always is, is who will pay for the uninsured.

If you think the employer based system is not sustainable, how does forcing a business to increase it’s benefits help?

Again this is quite simply wrong. When costs go up, there is probably more opportunity for competitive advantages than if they stayed static. It isn’t about whether costs go up or down. The advantage comes when you can contain costs better than your competition.

The reason Starbucks is whining is because they are not getting the competitive advantage they want, and can’t sustain what they have. Those older workers they attracted with their plan are costing a lot more than they hoped. They need to cut benefits. If you wanted to move away from an employer based system, Starbucks has a lot more to lose by that than does WalMart.

This strange advantage is called cheap labor. Below average benefits (and pay) are enough to attract the skills required. The reason you find it odd is that you think Walmart should be less of a business and more of a social program. Let’s face it, the only reason you want WalMart to pay more is so that you can pay less.

That’s the reason you don’t see a change. Everyone…you, me, Howard, wants someone else to pay for it.

Your comment here basically proves my point. The out-of-pocket expense for an employee is a fraction of the real cost of a health care plan. Unless you know how much your employer is paying for the benefit, you don’t know the cost.

Thanks for correcting me on that. That does make a lot more sense. Our employees do field some inquires from doctor’s offices asking them to pay a claim instead of having to clear up some paperwork snafu with our outsourced claims group, so I assumed that these were mostly coming direct from the medical practice (plus it does seem like most medical offices are well staffed). But these inquires could easily come from a claims processor for the doctor. Thanks again.

How do address the above point? I do not understand how you calculate competitive advantage in a way that disregards revenues. Basic accounting: expenses > revenues = bankruptcy.

I simply do not understand how you can argue that costs can ignore revenue. A great many dot.coms had a competitive advantage – which is how they got VCs to throw piles of money at them. And unless that advantage has a strong correlation with getting customers to buy your products and services, it aint worth jack. You may be able to achieve wonderful cost advantages over me with regard to health care, but if I can avoid the costs altogether, I have an even more distinct advantage in being able to deploy my capital toward my core business and increase my top line while you are focusing on the bottom line. (And this is the WalMart model – I will address the apparent contradiction in a moment.)

If it was a demand issue, the marketing departments of the pharmaceutical companies would not need to be the size they are. In the end, they are manufacturers. They need new products (with their competitively advantaged patent protection) and more importantly they need people to buy them. Thus we bombarded with their wonderful ads and lists of side effects. The demand is created by the supply.

Because offering workers insurance creates less stress on the system than by not doing so. Employees with good health care benefits will stay healthier since they will seek treatment sooner, and in less costly measures. One of the greatest stresses on the system is the uninsured which use the ER for their primary physician. Until we do switch to UHC, employers that have the ability to offer fair benefits should do so. To address the above contradiction, what I believe may be good for a firm, is bad for the overall economy. The costs are only shifted, not eliminated by not offering benefits.

Starbucks will likely gain more – they can shift the resources they are now using to provide health care toward a different set of benefits. WalMart would have to divert a different set of resources to provide those benefits.

And I believe they will soon find that such ‘advantage’ was penny wise and pound foolish. The quality of their workforce is showing its worth more and more.
And do I believe that businesses should society rather than society serve businesses? Hell yes. And unfortunately that seems to be a very small minority opinion. And I have never stated that I wish to pay less. I am quite willing to pay more in taxes for UHC since it will go toward making our country healthier, and thus hopefully wiser. I do not shop at Wal Mart and do not support their policies since I have no desire to help increase the wealth of spoiled-rotten billionaires.

No, not me. I doubt Howard either honestly. He wants to shift the costs from his books to the governments, but I do not see him wanting to shift the burden. I think he would favor higher taxes if it could be shown that the increase was less than the overhead Starbucks is now spending. Which I do not think is that difficult, but brings us to the heart of the problem. We are not experiencing a business or economic crisis as much as we experiencing a political failure to address these issues. The Maryland law is welcoming change in the right direction. To partially address the contradiction again, is this the best solution, forcing businesses to offer benefits? For the short run, I think so. For the long run, I think UHC is the better solution.

Most employees do know the costs, and that they are asked more and more to pick up a greater share of increases. Almost every strike I have seen in the past two years had been over this issue more than other. Yes, employers pay a significant amount, but out-of-pocket expenses place a greater burden on the employees than the employer, and that ‘fraction’ is increasing faster than the employers ‘fraction’.

Cite
[ul]
[li]One half of workers in the lowest-compensation jobs and one-half of workers in mid-range-compensation jobs either had problems with medical bills in a 12-month period or were paying off accrued debt. One-quarter of workers in higher-compensated positions also reported problems with medical bills or were paying off accrued debt.[/li][li]A recent study by Harvard University researchers found that the average out-of-pocket medical debt for those who filed for bankruptcy is $12,000. The study noted that 68 percent of those who filed for bankruptcy had health insurance. In addition, the study found that 50 percent of all bankruptcy filings were partly the result of medical expenses (11). Every 30 seconds in the United States someone files for bankruptcy in the aftermath of a serious health problem. [/li][li]Nearly one-quarter (23 percent) of the uninsured reported changing their way of life significantly in order to pay medical bills.[/li][/ul]

Do employees want others to pay for it? The greatest stress to the system is not those that have health care, but the unhealthy who have less coverage and higher expenses and the uninsured that receive more costly treatment. If they have to pay more per month or year in taxes, they will gladly do so then incur the debt the current system forces them into. They want everyone to pay a fair share. Since everyone would benefit from a healthier population, I agree with that sentiment. UHC receives its support not just for financial reasons, but for the peace of mind issues I addressed earlier.

Who said that progress isn’t being made? With very little actual marketing taking place, the number of people who support UHC is becoming quite dramatic, and it’s just a matter of time before it becomes one of the vital issues in the voting booth. 75% of Americans favor UHC while only 17% oppose it.. I don’t want UHC for selfish reasons, as I can easily afford my insurance premiums. I want it for those who can’t afford it, which could easily be myself or you tomorrow.

I also fully pay my own insurance premium, so I’m quite aware of what it costs. I’m also willing to pay slightly more than I do now if that’s what it requires for everyone to be covered. I don’t think it actually has to cost more to do so (as demonstrated by many countries), but that’s a different debate.

Unless you believe that people are using their health care benefits unwisely, then there’s no reason to worry about the incentives.

In any case, there’s no great incentive to use it unwisely either. People go to the doctor when they’re unwell, not when they feel like misusing their benefits.

Easy…I pay less for cost A than you do, my competitive advantage. Revenues are Z and are what the market will bear and for this example, are static. I will make more profit than you. I can also bid up costs B, C and D, such that Z - A, B, C, D means loss for you and profit for me. You exit the business. I count the cash. Business 101.

They had a marketing advantage (at least for the VC’s) they couldn’t turn into a real competitive advantage.

Marketing departments create demand, they do not make the drugs (supply). Marketing departments are large to create demand. You said price pressures came more from the supply side. Supply side price pressures mean you do not have enough supply, so the price goes up. As you noted, they have plenty of drugs, prices would go up merely because you have a lot of drugs. Nearly all of the price increase in health care is created by demand.

It would be piling on to note that this is a demand issue as well.

Translation, let the other guy pay. Why business and not government, isn’t this a social issue, isn’t that what governments are for? Sure you could tax WalMart more…and as much as you would like them to do things that are other than the good of the firm, they may feel otherwise.

The argument isn’t about whether you are willing to pay. The argument will be about how much you are willing to pay. If it’s too much, let the other guy pay.

Spending less money net on this issue does seem like shifting the burden to me. Yeah, let the other guy pay. Seems like an economic problem.

Maybe a political failure to address that pesky ‘let the other guy’ pay problem.

Yes, I can’t get sell a tax increase without getting voted out of office…so let the other guy pay.

Let’s see, you’ve stated employer benefit programs are a big reason for health care cost increases. I agree. So let’s make them bigger until we come up with the long term solution. Doesn’t that make the problem bigger, and the eventual long term solution, whatever it is, even tougher?

This is the reason you see support for UHC, which is really support for anything that has me pay less, or the other guy more. Hey maybe some would would be willing to pay a little more. The problem is that for UHC or something like it to be implemented, somebody, (hopefully the other guy) will have to pay a lot more.

I would bet a poll asked, would you be willing to pay a lot more for your health care to pay for the uninsured, you wouldn’t see anywhere near the support. Politicians already know this. That is why UHC is not availiable, yet.

We will get there when employers cut enough benefits, so that the average person actually pays enough of his own health care to accept a lower standard of insurance (say catastrophic) that can feasibily be financed. Asking employers to bump up benefits is actually slowing this process down.

It isn’t going to be just ‘slightly’. If 45 million are uninsured, your share will go up far more than slightly. Unless you wan’t the other guy to pay. Sure maybe a new government program will rid the system of waste and inefficiency. How’s the new Medicare program working?

empahsis added
While I largely agree with you on everything you posted, I avoided butting into this argument because I thought you made better points than I would have. (Though I was debating whether or not to debate Agnostic Pagan’s needlessly strict definition of capitalism).

However, you are incorrect about large supply = high price. A large supply will lower the price. If I have one cheeseburger left, a bunch of hungry people, I can command a very high price to my cheeseburger relative to a scenario where I have 10,000 cheeseburgers and the same bunch of hungry people. If there are so many cheeseburgers around, then there is low or no price competition for those cheeseburgers, because there is more pressure for you to get rid of those cheeseburgers than for people to eat them, simply stated. I would draw a graph for you, but I have no idea how to ascii much less do it on a message board.

Thanks, I misposted, what I meant to say was that prices wouldn’t go up when there was lots of supply. Poor editing on my part. Thanks.

The experience of other countries has proved that you don’t need drastic cuts in benefits for UHC to be feasible. And although it might make some twisted sense from a cold-hearted economic perspective, cutting benefits would be a step backward, not forward, because the primary goal is making sure people can see a doctor when they need to.

This concept forgets why medical costs are so much higher in the US than other nations. Somebody is raking in the dough.

Shockingly, Walmart is not mentioned

Two of those problems can be solved by moving to a single-payer UHC system.

Maybe you are on to something. Guess I missed the part of the UHC proposal that unwinds 40 years of hegemonic power of hospitals and physicians asking them to take a huge revenue cut to even out their take with other countries. Sign me up.

I can see why Starbucks didn’t mention any support for UHC, now. All those medical professionals who spend $4 bucks on a half-calf, laff-a-caff may have to cut back to Maxwell House.

WalMart, however, may be interested…I hear Maxwell House is cheapest at WalMart, they would probably kick in a coupon if that would help. Especially if you get Maryland to quit beating them up and go after those overpaid doctors.

I’m sure these last two paragraphs probably made it obvious I’m not a coffee drinker.

Of course it is unfair to force a single company to provide healthcare. It is an inconsistantly applied rule.

Much better off having healthcare provided to all by the government - now thats fair.

A company should pay workers’ compensation insurance for its employees, since it is directly related to the job. However, the whole idea of a company covering the cost of health care or employees childrens education, or the cost of maintaining their swiming-pool, or dog grooming fees is absurd. These do not have anything to do with the job.

While it’s certainly possible that my share will go up, it’s definitely not a requirement if implemented properly, and in fact should drop quite a bit. This article discusses some of the problems with our current system, and why it’s so expensive. Lots of examples are given, such as oversaturation of expensive technologies, which are then underused, thus increasing their per use cost, which is passed on to the end user. This actually results in fewer people getting mammograms, for instance, even though we have plenty of machines to take care of everyone. It’s quite an interesting article.

If you mean the new plan that was implemented by foes of UHC, then not so well. That’s like asking me how a Republican implemented abortion clinic would work out for pregnant teenagers who are afraid of talking to their parents, and using that as an argument against Planned Parenthood, isn’t it? If your argument is that a business-favoring political committee shouldn’t be in charge of how we implement UHC, you won’t get any argument from me, as I want health care as widely separated from financial interests as possible. If you just wanted to throw out random BS to swat down, then you’re wasting both of our time.

Huh, I thought you would’ve read that article before posting a link to it. Guess not. Here you go (emphasis added):

I did read the article. Guess you didn’t read my post. If medical costs were reduced to what other countries pay, UHC would be ‘solve the problem’ as you put it. My sarcasm was intended to portray the difficultly of getting the medical community to accept reduced revenue stream.

Your response suggests that if UHC was implemented earlier we wouldn’t have this problem. Sure maybe. The article I cited includes this summary about the high cost of medical care.

'High and rising health care expenditures may not threaten the vitality of the U.S. economy, but they are a serious concern for groups within the economy: employers, employees, governments, taxpayers, and patients. For individuals and organizations who earn their income by providing or supplying health services—hospitals, pharmaceutical companies, and physicians—high costs may be beneficial. ’

I know it’s nice to blame business in general, but maybe instead of targeting WalMart, maybe it’s better to take on the group who really benefits from the current system. Note that none of the articles (including the 13 year old one that DMC quoted) comes up with general numbers such as:

To insure the 45 million uninsured it will cost X, this program will be paid for reduced medical cost A + reduced adminstrative costs B + net employer contributions (say via a payroll tax) C + increased corporate and personal income taxes or some value added tax D + net increase in premiums to the insured to cover the uninsured E (who almost surely as a pool are in a higher risk group than the insured).

It’s much easier to say, the current system is inefficient, a new system is a panacea, and let’s get WalMart to pay there fair share, than it is to make the numbers work.

If there is a UHC proposal the could be sold to make the math work, why haven’t we seen it? My take is that is because the total of A, B, C, D and E that the various groups will actually accept doesn’t come anywhere near X. Not to mention all these various groups are waiting for the others to pay more.

I think we will eventually see UHC, but only until we get a plan the gets X way down from where it is. When people begin to realize that universal care is not going to include an MRI when you want it because the clinic has one availiable, or the latest drug availiable you’ve seen on TV. So the first step is likely just catastrophic care.

The expectation gap is actually worse now thanks to Bush’s give away on prescription drugs/Medicare. The cite DMC posted that said 75% of people favor UHC, also said something like over 90% of people favor Medicare. Sure we like it, the plan is so financially hocked in the future it makes the Social Security future shortfall like manageable by comparison, it’s set so the other guy (or in this case the other guy’s kids) to pay for it.

Doesn’t seem too difficult. If all common medical care in the country is paid for by one entity, the medical community will either accept what that entity is willing to pay, or go out of business. If you want those hospitals to cut their costs, what better way than to tell them “You’re only going to get paid $X for providing service Y, same as in any other civilized country, so go figure out what they’re doing right”?

If you think that’s why people like Medicare, take off those economist glasses and think a little harder. People like it because they don’t like the idea of elderly and disabled people going without medical care.

To the argument that companies will attempt to gain a competitive advantage as far as hiring and retaining workers through their health plans: interesting, entirely true, and completely irrelevant. Mere standard market behavior. Big farkin’ deal. Has zip to do with whether or not this is good for the society at large.
Even more to the point, it has zip to do with whether or not it’s even good for the company in question, which presupposes that the decision-makers in a company have a clue. Having spent more time than I would really want to add up scrolling through stock screeners and reading annual reports than I would ever want anyone to total, I can tell you that my overwhelming conclusion from all of this is: CEO’s are no better than Presidents of the US, and in many many cases are actually worse. So looking at their behavior, which is the current behavior of the market participants in health care, apart from the government itself, isn’t going to provide meaningful or useful insight into this problem. Or any other, for that matter, but as this one is the one before us, let’s just leave it at this: GM is not atypical. The managers at GM should have known long ago that Toyota was going to have them for breakfast, lunch, and dinner if they continued to fund healthcare at the levels at which they were funding it. That they didn’t address the problem until this past year is proof enough that your average management is worse than useless if your looking for someone whose behavior is in any way rational in this or any other sphere.
To the argument that it’s unfair to target Wal-Mart with this Maryland law: laughable. Like Wal-Mart cares what’s fair. If they don’t, the average Maryland taxpayer shouldn’t either. They should approach the question in the same way Wal-Mart does: does it improve my bottom line? If it does, screw Wal-Mart to the wall. If not, not. Wal-Mart isn’t going to reduce its employees to less than 10000, because as has been shown, it can’t, not without adversely affecting its revenues and profits. Given that, Maryland has every right to screw them in any and every way it feels like, because if the shoe were on the other foot, Wal-Mart would do the same.
That’s the way the real world works.
Which brings us to the larger perspective on all this: the US is in this mess because its workers are so cowed that very large segments of them actually believe that their interests are aligned with those of their employers. This stupid fantasy doesn’t afflict the average working Joe in Canada or Britain or France. The result is that they get equal healthcare for a lot less, and not only that, their employers do too. Why? Because everyone in those countries aggressively pursues their own interests, like A Smith would have wanted them to. Out of the melee that ensues, a solution that is good for the entire society involved emerges. The only reason, the ONLY reason, why the US has healthcare costs that are spiraling into the solar system and beyond is that its workers walk around thinking they can negotiate the best deal for themselves all by themselves, as if every worker were an island. Stupid wouldn’t even begin to describe this behavior.
So, even though you wouldn’t want to look to your average management for a solution, the fault doesn’t lie with your average manager; it lies with the worker, who is unable to see his own interest and to pursue it aggressively. A small minority, becoming smaller every day, does pursue that interest aggressively, and that minority is made up of unionized workers, the people who pushed for and got the Maryland law. They pushed for it and got it not because it was their preferred solution to the problem, but because it was the only way for them to advocate for the interests of the average Wal-Mart employee.
Now, stepping back, the point of this whole diatribe is that health-care, like pensions, or any other insured risk, has an inverse relationship between the size of the insured pool and the size of the cost: the larger the pool, the smaller the cost. So, if the workers of the US were to pursue their interest aggressively in this question, they would go for and get a Federal, nationwide solution to this problem, otherwise known as a UHC. That some individual business might see this as being bad for their competitive position vis-a-vis others would be irrelevant, especially given that globalization very definitely makes the domestic interests of an individual US-based business completely irrelevant and parochial. GM is finally beginning to figure this out. Given that they’ve been operating globally since the end of WWII, you can see that your average manager is more than a little obtuse when it comes to society-wide questions, or ones that involve looking out into the future more than a year or two.
So, you can’t expect a management or a management-oriented worker to make the case for UHC; it has to be made by workers who’s interest lies with making healthcare universally available and cheap.
Once that’s done, management will come around, once they see how much it lowers their costs and allows them to get on with the actual task of managing their individual businesses. But they’re not going to see that ahead of time; ahead of time all they’ll see is the situation before them and the competition that’s breathing down their necks, because that’s what they’re paid to see. But jumping from that to thinking that that form of thinking is actually good for either society or for any individual member of it is to make a jump without looking down to see just how far you will fall if you don’t make it to the other side. Like the coyote in the Road-runner cartoons.
Poof!
Except the results are a bit bloodier than that, usually.
As for whether or not the medical community would accept a lower payrate, this doesn’t even qualify as irrelevant. What are they going to do, move to Canada? Threaten their Congressman that they aren’t going to vote for him? Except for a very few very rich Congressional districts, this threat would mean exactly squat. Honestly.
Besides which, note the following well: the lion’s share of medical inflation accrues to hospitals, not doctors. See Table 128 of the Statistical Abstract, and note that, for an index based on rates as they were in 1982-1984, the hospital cost index was at 417.9 in 2004, while the physician cost index was at 278.3, below even that of dentists. The problem lies not with your doctor, but with your hospital, you know, the guys who charge you for an aspirin as if were a toilet seat for the Defense Department. Note as well, by looking at Table 708, that the index for doctors is lower than that for garbage collection, roughly equivalent to that for fresh fruits and vegetables, and way below that for educational books and supplies. Hospital costs, OTOH, are second only to college tuition in their rate of increase since the base year.
In having these discussions, it helps if you know where to direct your ammunition.

Full disclosure: I’m married to a doctor. I like to think that she’s as good for me as an apple a day. (index = 251.7, a bit below her cost)

Yeah it is fair. If their employees cannot afford healthcare on their salaries I see nothing wrong with requiring them to provide more healthcare. Medicaid ends up paying for walmart employee’s healthcare. The system of tying healthcare to work is a horrible idea, but right now it is what we have. I’d personally prefer that walmart just pay a little more in taxes to go to medicaid instead.

I saw this story on Cavuto, that was pretty funny. He brought Steve Forbes on and pitched a bunch of softballs about how evil government mandates are and how good the free market system is. I thought it was funny.