# New movie "Vaxxed" reopens discussion about the link between autism and vaccines **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 15, 2016, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420 "2016-06-15T13:49:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/201 "2016-06-20T17:57:38Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Is it possible science has left something out when everything is done in controlled laboratory settings and is reduced to just numbers and data? Maybe their is something missing when a researcher just stays in their lab with their computers, books, and testing equipment. Is it perhaps _more_ possible that people have left something out when everything is done in uncontrolled environments by observers with an extreme emotional attachment to the outcome and extremely small sample sizes? Maybe something is missing when a parent conflates correlation with causation on their _single child_ and does absolutely nothing to confirm or deny that result? What you’re saying here seems to me to essentially be, “I don’t trust science, but I will trust a handful of anecdotes from parents who don’t know epidemiology from epidurals to accurately give me their stories and correctly interpret the data they have.” That’s phenomenally stupid. Many of these studies that examine the link between autism and vaccines are _based on case studies_. That is, actual evidence presented by doctors examining these children and giving their expert medical opinion. Doctors which, typically, are trained to avoid basic traps like immediately blaming something just because it happened immediately before some deleterious effect. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > You can also look at school records or even the families home videos and you see a clear before and after distinction. So say a kid was hitting developmental milestones such as speech and physical activity one day and then loses those shortly after getting their 15 month vaccinations. Wouldn’t that be evidence of something happening? It would be. Weak, circumstantial, and highly questionable, but yes, it would be evidence. It’s then our job to go over that evidence and see whether or not there actually is any fire behind the smoke. The answer, as has been revealed in study after study after study, is that the correlation is coincidental. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/202 "2016-06-20T18:57:29Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > What you’re saying here seems to me to essentially be, “I don’t trust science, but I will trust a handful of anecdotes from parents who don’t know epidemiology from epidurals to accurately give me their stories and correctly interpret the data they have.” That’s phenomenally stupid. Especially because the human mind tends to see patterns when none exist, and jump to conclusions. Of course there is a certain evolutionary advantage to that; if you see your friend die after being bitten by a snake, it’s better to think “snake bites are deadly, avoid all snakes!” than to say “I wonder if he really died from the snake bite?” But it can also be harmful - maybe the friend died from infection, but the snake itself was not only non-venomous but also edible and could have saved you from starvation. That’s why we have statistics. To find out the patterns we see are real, or just false impressions. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/203 "2016-06-20T19:05:57Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I keep wondering why they compare measles, mumps, and chicken pox to polio? I for one had all 3 growing up as did many others kids of the 60’s. Interestingly according to [this site](http://www.scpr.org/programs/take-two/2014/04/17/36986/faq-how-you-can-still-get-measles-even-after-being/), persons born back when measles were common (pre 1957) are considered naturally immune. > > I’d like to also add that getting the MMR does not make you immune to the measles. Even vaccinated people can get it. Here is [an NPR story](http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2014/04/18/304155213/why-mumps-and-measles-can-spread-even-when-were-vaccinated) on this. Yes, and we needed to keep getting smallpox “boosters” because vaccination didn’t give lifelong immunity like surviving smallpox–or the more hazardous but valuable-in-the-18th-century inoculation/variolation. But we ended smallpox. (Didn’t you ever take a Biology class–even in high school?) I had measles (both kinds!), mumps & chicken pox. Mumps hurt & chicken pox itched but measles was worse. Because I had to lie in a darkened room–no reading allowed–and my Mom checked on me even more often. I could tell she was worried. They took me for an eye exam when I recovered–no problems were detected. Even if you can ignore a few dead kids here & there, why should children have to suffer from preventable diseases? Why should parents have to worry & miss work? And let _me_ admit to a vaccine failing–the shingles vaccine is for _old_ people, isn’t it? Oops. I got a mild case of shingles (because of the chicken pox) & have since rectified the situation. Before the MMR vaccine, a first cousin was diagnosed with Autism. This was long ago–deafness & retardation were considered first. And I think these were the days when maternal “coldness” was considered a cause; but his four younger sibs are fine. He never became verbal & was institutionalized long ago. His younger brother says he visits occasionally but is really “happier” where he is. Still, there are ways to help Austistic kids nowadays; perhaps he would have done a bit better with early intervention. Surely any modern parent of an Autistic child ought to focus on bettering that child’s life rather than screwing around with quackery. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/204 "2016-06-20T23:30:39Z")
Well, what _ **I** _ heard is that a copper bracelet with embedded magnets would fix him right up. Have you tried that **Urbanredneck**? :rolleyes classic: ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/205 "2016-06-21T00:00:10Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I keep wondering why they compare measles, mumps, and chicken pox to polio? I for one had all 3 growing up as did many others kids of the 60’s. Interestingly according to [this site](http://www.scpr.org/programs/take-two/2014/04/17/36986/faq-how-you-can-still-get-measles-even-after-being/), persons born back when measles were common (pre 1957) are considered naturally immune. > > I’d like to also add that getting the MMR does not make you immune to the measles. Even vaccinated people can get it. Here is [an NPR story](http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2014/04/18/304155213/why-mumps-and-measles-can-spread-even-when-were-vaccinated) on this. Yes 5% off vaccinated individuals may still become sick of exposed. Let’s increase the number of people who get sick, have serious [complications](http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html) or even die by not vaccinating at all with the MMR! ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/206 "2016-06-21T01:37:45Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > We know exactly what happens when vaccinations are given by tired, hurried and poorly trained nurses. Since basically everyone gets this, we have reams and reams of data covering every possible circumstance. The answer is “not autism.” If you go watch the movie they interview one woman who has twins. When they were getting the twins their MMR vaccinations the nurse had both kids in a room with several vials ready. She lost track of what she was doing and accidentally gave both injections of the MMR vaccine to the same kid (remember they were twins). That kid came home and had a horrible reaction to the double doses and now has severe autism while the other twin is fine. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/207 "2016-06-21T01:38:47Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Well, what _ **I** _ heard is that a copper bracelet with embedded magnets would fix him right up. Have you tried that **Urbanredneck**? :rolleyes classic: And you wonder why I dont reply to everyone? Hope your having fun. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/208 "2016-06-21T01:43:10Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > And you wonder why I dont reply to everyone? Hope your having fun. Thin skin much? Nope, you don’t have any room to play martyr, my friend. Had you been willing to engage, honestly and openly, in the spirit of understanding the issues and fighting ignorance, from the beginning of the thread…well, **dropzone** will still have been snarky. But in all respect and seriousness, you are not doing yourself or the anti-vaccination “movement” any favors here. ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/209 "2016-06-21T01:48:23Z")
> [@](#): > > If you go watch the movie they interview one woman who has twins. When they were getting the twins their MMR vaccinations the nurse had both kids in a room with several vials ready. She lost track of what she was doing and accidentally gave both injections of the MMR vaccine to the same kid (remember they were twins). That kid came home and had a horrible reaction to the double doses and now has severe autism while the other twin is fine. Weren’t the twins fraternal (meaning not genetically the same)? Is there independent verification of this elsewhere - I don’t trust the the documentary, as I know is misrepresents a great deal. And even if the events (MMR and symptoms) did happen at the same time and the one vaccinated had autism, it doesn’t mean the vaccination caused the other (numerous studies have repeatedly indicated that vaccines do not cause autism - an anecdote won’t change my mind - numerous peer-reviewed studies will). ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/210 "2016-06-21T01:55:27Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > If you go watch the movie they interview one woman who has twins. When they were getting the twins their MMR vaccinations the nurse had both kids in a room with several vials ready. She lost track of what she was doing and accidentally gave both injections of the MMR vaccine to the same kid (remember they were twins). That kid came home and had a horrible reaction to the double doses and now has severe autism while the other twin is fine. Given they _boast_ of having a fraudster as an expert I suggest you check out old Tom and Jerry movies to determine how best to rid you house of mice. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/211 "2016-06-21T02:03:54Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > If you go watch the movie they interview one woman who has twins. When they were getting the twins their MMR vaccinations the nurse had both kids in a room with several vials ready. She lost track of what she was doing and accidentally gave both injections of the MMR vaccine to the same kid (remember they were twins). That kid came home and had a horrible reaction to the double doses and now has severe autism while the other twin is fine. One was a boy and one a girl. So yeah fraternal. No more genetically similar than any two siblings. The mother also calls it a [holocaust](http://www.ageofautism.com/2016/06/anne-dachel-interviews-sheila-ealey-on-vaxxed-the-movie.html). Nice. Hey if it’s caused by vaccines, does that mean non vaccinated children are not [autistic](https://www.verywell.com/unvaccinated-children-with-autism-2633214)? ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/212 "2016-06-21T02:04:44Z")
> [@Tzigone](#): > > Weren’t the twins fraternal (meaning not genetically the same)? Yes. They aren’t the same gender, so obviously they are fraternal twins. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/213 "2016-06-21T02:13:34Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > And you wonder why I dont reply to everyone? Hope your having fun. No one should be making fun of your child, or the difficulty of raising an autistic child. But encouraging people to avoid vaccines KILLS PEOPLE. What you’re going through deserves support. How you’re reacting to what you’re going through deserves ridicule. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/214 "2016-06-21T02:45:22Z")
Instead of looking at school records, why not look at the rates of child mortality back in the day before vaccination was common vs. after? Or even just visit a cemetary and wander through the older sections. Half of the graves are of children. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I keep wondering why they compare measles, mumps, and chicken pox to polio? I for one had all 3 growing up as did many others kids of the 60’s. Interestingly according to [this site](http://www.scpr.org/programs/take-two/2014/04/17/36986/faq-how-you-can-still-get-measles-even-after-being/), persons born back when measles were common (pre 1957) are considered naturally immune. And there are people who didn’t survive them, or suffered from horrible health problems because of them. Actress Gene Tierney caught rubella from a fan when she was pregnant, and her daughter Daria ended up being born severely retarded. Author Roald Dahl’s daughter died from complications due to the measles. Mumps can cause sterility. You can even end up with problems from chicken pox – hello, shingles? (My dad’s had it twice) I mentioned my two uncles. People survive whooping cough and tetanus (thanks for correcting me on that, **Bricker**!), but not always, and even when they do, both are agonizing to go through, and horrid for a parent to watch. Get this through your head: my great-grandmother lost not one, but two children to diseases that we can easily prevent today with vaccines. Do you honestly think the risk of autism is worse than a dead child? I’m sorry about your son. But to put it bluntly, you didn’t have to see him cough himself to death, or watch him suffocate from lockjaw. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/215 "2016-06-21T03:00:16Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > If you go watch the movie Full stop, I already pointed that a focus of the movie is from William Thompson’s accusations of fraud in the CDC. Those accusations are false or misleading, as you still have to deal with the citations I made early. Here is more of the misleading information that William Thompson was making, before the Vaxxed movie and the makers of it repeated them: > **[The Brian Hooker/William Thompson conversations](https://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2015/08/24/the-brian-hookerwilliam-thompson-conversations/)** > > A year ago we learned that a CDC researcher (William Thompson) had reached out to Brian Hooker (of all people!) and was talking about his (Thompson’s) view of what goes on inside the CDC. Mos… > [@](#): > > Here’s a quote attributed to Mr. Thompson: > > > [@](#): > > > > ``` > > “But I also have to say these drug companies and their promoters, they’re making such a big deal of these measles outbreaks and they are now, they’re making a big deal that polio is coming back and polio comes back all the time in third world countries. It’s like a never- ending thing where the press loves to hype it and it scares people. It scares the crap out of people when they hype those two types of outbreaks” > > > > ``` > > Really? A vaccine researcher at CDC thinks it’s “hype” to talk about polio coming back? > > Here’s the thing–we want to eradicate polio. That’s what vaccine researchers at CDC are supposed to be helping. Polio is really bad. If it weren’t for people like Brian Hooker, Thompson’s new friend, we might have done that by now. Any outbreak is a big deal. But not to William Thompson. > > Boggles the mind. > > In discussing the MMR paper–the one where Hooker claims a large risk for MMR in African American boys who are vaccinated late (by not controlling for any confounding variables)–Hooker notes in his conversation: > > > [@](#): > > > > ``` > > “I mean, whites are getting diagnosed twice as much as blacks” > > > > ``` > > That’s a pretty key observation. If you are going to claim a large risk for African American’s, you have to discuss in your paper the fact that this doesn’t mesh with the actual prevalence. The raw prevalence has African American’s not getting counted as much as caucasians. > > Does Brian Hooker bring this up in his paper? Address it? No. He ignores a significant result of the analysis. That’s right, he does exactly what he claims is fraud. Well, not exactly–he compounds his error. Let’s look at his **(now retracted) paper**: > > > [@](#): > > > > ``` > > It should be noted that a recent publication has shown that the prevalence of autism in African Americans is nearly 25% higher than that of whites [15]. > > > > ``` > > Yes–even though the data he is analyzing says exactly the opposite, he claims a higher than average prevalence of autism in the African American population. > > Let’s belabor that one step further–if he actually believes a higher prevalence in this population, there is a huge issue with the data he’s analyzing. He doesn’t account for this, controlling for any socioeconomic factors, for example. He doesn’t even mention it. It appears that he intentionally omitted significant findings from his paper. > > Hooker at one point notes, “I am not an epidemiologist by training”. > > Got that right. > > You can read more about the conversations at Science Based Medicine as > [Vaccine Whistleblower: An antivaccine “exposé” full of sound and fury, signifying nothing](https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/vaccine-whistleblower-an-antivaccine-expose-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing/) > > And I’m sure there will be more. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/216 "2016-06-21T03:04:52Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Thin skin much? Nope, you don’t have any room to play martyr, my friend. Had you been willing to engage, honestly and openly, in the spirit of understanding the issues and fighting ignorance, from the beginning of the thread…well, **dropzone** will still have been snarky. You bet! It’s what I do. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/217 "2016-06-21T03:07:33Z")
Come on people you know we’ve all seen this a million times. They say there’s not enough independent studies, and they say you just need to talk to parents who have _seen_ it with their own eyes, and they say vaccines don’t even work, we’ve just learned how to wash our hands, and they say hey why are you so worried if _your_ kid is vaccinated, and they say hey I’m just asking questions, and they say I’m not anti-vaccine, I’m pro _safe_ vaccine (or “vaccine cautious” in this case). I mean seriously, Wakefield just gives them the talking points and they just spout them back…they don’t even make sense all put together into an argument. It’s not a conversation. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/218 "2016-06-21T03:29:54Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > If you would research a bit of your own you’s see I’ve responded to others 11 times. Unfortunately, every one of your responses has been either an unsubstantiated anecdote or a claim, by you, that you do not trust scientific research (while demonstrating a serious misunderstanding of how such research is carried out). You really are not holding up your end of the “debate” and I am torn between moving this to a forum for mere opinions or to The BBQ Pit as a rant. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/219 "2016-06-21T04:00:02Z")
I’m curious, though I don’t expect the OP to answer, what is an acceptable death toll from preventable diseases to try to reduce autism? What about severe complications? I have a good friend whose oldest daughter is autistic. She gets pissed when she hears anti vaxxers like McCarthy talk about the soul just going out from behind her son’s eyes. Her daughter may be different, but she’s not broken. And many antivaxxers refer to their children as zombies or broken or talk about the soul of their child just… going away. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/220 "2016-06-21T04:08:08Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > If you go watch the movie they interview one woman who has twins. When they were getting the twins their MMR vaccinations the nurse had both kids in a room with several vials ready. She lost track of what she was doing and accidentally gave both injections of the MMR vaccine to the same kid (remember they were twins). That kid came home and had a horrible reaction to the double doses and now has severe autism while the other twin is fine. Is there any independent confirmation of any of this? What’s the woman’s name? Is there a case study to back this up? Would you like to provide _evidence_ for your claim that doesn’t come in the form of a documentary that has been established to be complete and utter shit? Let’s be clear here - if my source for a claim is the documentary “How Lizard People Took Over”, _I DO NOT HAVE A SOURCE_. @Tomndebb I’d vote pit, personally. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420.md?page=12)