# New movie "Vaxxed" reopens discussion about the link between autism and vaccines **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 15, 2016, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420 "2016-06-15T13:49:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/41 "2016-06-15T21:44:27Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > For 3, children shouldn’t have to suffer because their parents don’t know how vaccines work. However, as a compromise, I would be able to live with such an exemption _provided_ the children are homeschooled so they don’t risk bringing potentially deadly diseases into mainstream schools. Why are you worried? If your kid is vaccinated your protected right? ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/42 "2016-06-15T21:48:29Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Why are you worried? If your kid is vaccinated your protected right? Firstly, decent people don’t just worry about their own kids. Secondly, vaccines provide very, very good protection but, like all medicines, they don’t provide 100% protection 100% of the time. There is a chance, however small, that my kid could catch measles from your unvaccinated kid even after my kid has been vaccinated. The risk may be very small, but it’s not yours to put on me. Especially since the thing _you’re_ scared of is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/43 "2016-06-15T21:50:31Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Why are you worried? If your kid is vaccinated your protected right? This statement would make sense if everyone at risk could be vaccinated (not true - for example those who are immunosuppressed via innate or acquired immune system defect may be unable to receive vaccines or have them work optimally. This includes people being treated for cancer and autoimmune diseases), and if vaccination was 100% effective (nope -like every effective medical intervention, it’s not perfect. Sometimes vaccination in perfectly healthy individuals does not “take” for whatever reason). Thus we depend on herd immunity through high vaccine uptake to protect those who are still susceptible to disease. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/44 "2016-06-15T21:54:06Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Why are you worried? If your kid is vaccinated your protected right? You should look up herd immunity. Your understanding of how vaccinations and herd immunity are seriously flawed, and you don’t actually understand what the real world risks are…risks the anti-vaxxers are forcing all of society to incur in the same clueless way you are by making statements like this. :eek: ETA: Or, what Jackmannii said. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/45 "2016-06-15T21:54:45Z")
I have been looking at other countries vaccination schedules. Here is an article on [Why Japan banned the MMR vaccine](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-17509/Why-Japan-banned-MMR-vaccine.html). Japan also has some[vaccine controversies](http://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2014/10/04/lifestyle/vaccination-choice-two-unknowns/#.V2HMqjWH_4o). I looked at Denmark and on their [recomendation](https://sundhedsstyrelsen.dk/en/disease-and-treatment/vaccination/~/media/B74655FEA6DF4771998A6BDEA96A374A.ashx) for vaccinations they say kids can get the MMR at 15 months however they dont require it until age 4. I also dont see a vaccine for chickenpox recommended. [This site](http://vaccine-schedule.ecdc.europa.eu/Pages/Scheduler.aspx), shows that all the European countries have their own schedules. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/46 "2016-06-15T21:55:07Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Why are you worried? If your kid is vaccinated your protected right? > **[Herd immunity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity)** > > Herd immunity (also called herd effect, community immunity, population immunity, or mass immunity) is a form of indirect protection that applies only to contagious diseases. It occurs when a sufficient percentage of a population has become immune to an infection, whether through previous infections or vaccination, thereby reducing the likelihood of infection for individuals who lack immunity. > Once the herd immunity has been reached, disease gradually disappears from a population and may result... More importantly, if you do actually convince someone to _not_ immunize their child, you’re raising that child’s risk of getting the measles. It might not be _my_ child, but I’m not a psychopath, so I tend to be opposed to attempts to get people killed, regardless of whether I have any blood relationship to them or not. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/47 "2016-06-15T22:30:06Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I have been looking at other countries vaccination schedules. > > Here is an article on [Why Japan banned the MMR vaccine](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-17509/Why-Japan-banned-MMR-vaccine.html). > > Japan also has some[vaccine controversies](http://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2014/10/04/lifestyle/vaccination-choice-two-unknowns/#.V2HMqjWH_4o). > > I looked at Denmark and on their [recomendation](https://sundhedsstyrelsen.dk/en/disease-and-treatment/vaccination/~/media/B74655FEA6DF4771998A6BDEA96A374A.ashx) for vaccinations they say kids can get the MMR at 15 months however they dont require it until age 4. I also dont see a vaccine for chickenpox recommended. > > [This site](http://vaccine-schedule.ecdc.europa.eu/Pages/Scheduler.aspx), shows that all the European countries have their own schedules. NONE of the links you posted refer to autism as a reason for the banning or reschedule. As for those complication it is more reasonable to realize that there were issues with the MMR vaccine related on how the Japanese handled the vaccine as no other nation found the complications to be much less than the alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/48 "2016-06-15T22:42:31Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I have been looking at other countries vaccination schedules. None of those links have anything to do with your OP. Do you care to attempt to support your OP or are you just throwing things against the wall to see what sticks? None of it will, but that’s kind of besides the point. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/49 "2016-06-15T22:50:25Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Here is an article on [Why Japan banned the MMR vaccine](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-17509/Why-Japan-banned-MMR-vaccine.html). And [here](https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7076-autism-rises-despite-mmr-ban-in-japan/) is an article showing that reported autism cases increased _after_ the ban was put in place. \*"A study of more than 30,000 children in Japan should put the final nail in the coffin of the claim that the MMR vaccine is responsible for the apparent rise in autism in recent years. The study shows that in the city of Yokohama the number of children with autism continued to rise after the MMR vaccine was replaced with single vaccines. “The findings are resoundingly negative,” says Hideo Honda of the Yokohama Rehabilitation Center…With his colleagues Yasuo Shimizu and Michael Rutter of the Institute of Psychiatry in London, UK, Honda looked at the records of 31,426 children born in one district of Yokohama between 1988 and 1996. The team counted children diagnosed as autistic by the age of 7. They found the cases continued to multiply after the vaccine withdrawal, ranging from 48 to 86 cases per 10,000 children before withdrawal to 97 to 161 per 10,000 afterwards. The same pattern was seen with a particular form of autism in which children appear to develop normally and then suddenly regress – the form linked to MMR by Wakefield."\* Japan lags behind other developed nations in vaccine coverage and as a result has experienced multiple recent outbreaks of diseases like measles and rubella. They’ve also been sluggish about promoting HPV vaccination based on fears that have been repeatedly debunked elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/50 "2016-06-15T23:01:06Z")
Correction of my last post: As for those complications it is more reasonable to realize that there were issues with the MMR vaccine related on how the Japanese handled the vaccine as no other nation found the complications \*\*to be worse \*\*than the alternative. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/51 "2016-06-15T23:19:47Z")
Why should I care if my kids vaxxed? Because his sister is a newborn, too young to be vaxxed. Your kid brings it to school, passes it to my kids hands and he passes it to his sister. Who dies from it. Could it be clearer? You want to live among civilized people, you gotta follow the rules of the herd. Don’t want your kid vaxxed? Keep them out of school with our kids! Like the rules in Japan? Get a ticket! Anyone who would believe one word out of Andrew Wakefield’s lying mouth is a fool in my opinion. No other medical person has ever been so thoroughly discredited or so publicly driven out of his profession. Denounced by every authority, and medical board! But hey, I’m sure you know better. After all, you saw a movie! ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/52 "2016-06-16T00:20:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you have a cite for that? IIUC, what you are saying is that there used to be 100 kids, five of whom would be diagnosed as autistic and five would be diagnosed as something else. Thus a total of five autism diagnoses and five diagnoses of “something else”. Nowadays of the same 100 kids, 10 would be diagnosed as autistic and five as the same “something else”, for a total of 10 diagnoses of autism plus five diagnoses of “something else”. Is that what you mean? > > If so, keep in mind that diagnoses of autism can be added to other diagnoses, and not always replace them. That is, a change in the way autism is diagnosed can result in kids being diagnosed as autistic _and_ “something else”. Not merely _instead of_ “something else”. IYSWIM. I doubt you’ll get that cite, given that the cites provided already address his “single refutation”, which is incorrect. Maybe he didn’t read them. Other diagnoses have decreased and been replaced with diagnoses of autism. So you don’t even need dual diagnoses. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/53 "2016-06-16T02:09:00Z")
UrbanRedneck, I belong in that exclusive parents of kids on the spectrum club. I feel your pain. My sweet child is likely to never be able to live on her own, keep a job without direct supervision, or ever be able to clearly communicate what’s going on in her innocent head. I would like to blame someone, something, answer why my daughter and even better sue the holy crap out of some corporation for a huge financial settlement. That said, Andrew Wakefield is a complete fraud that has been thoroughly debunked and disbarred (or whatever the correct term is) from being a doctor. His original study that started this whole MMR propaganda was a fraud. It’s a tough row to hoe as a parent to come to terms with Autism. IMHO it’s a lifelong journey. I wish only the best for you, your family and your spectrum child as you deal with your own journey. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/54 "2016-06-16T02:19:25Z")
Can an anti-vaxxer please explain to me how this “vaccines cause autism” thing is theorized to work? Do they claim that a chemical in the vaccine specifically does work in the brain in a particular way that causes autism? What mechanism are they claiming is the way the damage works? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/55 "2016-06-16T02:20:55Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > \*(Harmlessness not guaranteed if you are stupid enough to confront Buzz Aldrin in person) Dude’s 86 and can STILL kick my ass. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/56 "2016-06-16T02:32:19Z")
I do have two questions, though, about Bill Maher’s claim that the swine flu vaccine contained insect repellent, mercury and aluminum: First, is it true, and second, what’s the purpose of having that stuff in there? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/57 "2016-06-16T02:35:29Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Can an anti-vaxxer please explain to me how this “vaccines cause autism” thing is theorized to work? > > Do they claim that a chemical in the vaccine specifically does work in the brain in a particular way that causes autism? What mechanism are they claiming is the way the damage works? Hell, I’d like to hear them explain why all medical professionals immunize themselves and their loved ones. If the evidence is clear, why would they coddle Big Pharma’s interests with their lives? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/58 "2016-06-16T02:44:22Z")
I remember polio and knew a kid who could hardly walk because his dad was an anti-vaxxer. I gained immunity to measles, mumps, and pertussis the hard way. Fuck yeah, my kids were immunized on schedule. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/59 "2016-06-16T04:01:36Z")
Okay, this is utterly, completely, fucking insane. We wiped out fucking smallpox by using vaccines. The deadliest infectious disease in history, and we completely wiped it out. We are THIS close to getting rid of polio, but there are still cases in third world countries. I’ve mentioned this in pretty much every thread about this, but my grandmother had two brothers who died when they were children. One of whooping cough, the other of tetanus. Tetanus is an extremely painful way to die – and unlike these other diseases, it’s not contagious – you get it from rust, or soil. If you don’t get a tetanus shot after a cut, and it becomes infected, you will die, and it will be a pretty agonizing death. Whooping cough – people have been known to break ribs from coughing so hard. You’re in danger of coughing yourself to death. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Why are you worried? If your kid is vaccinated your protected right? Because not everyone can be vaccinated. There are always people who have certain immune disorders, kids who are too young yet to be vaccinated, etc. And even then, do you really think it’s fair for parents to allow their kids to become infected with deadly diseases because of a bunch of quackery? Honestly, I believe that not getting your child vaccinated and exposing them to such deadly diseases equates to child abuse. It’s no different than people who refuse to get their kids treatment for cancer, or other serious medical treatment, if you ask me. I highly reccomend the book [_Deadly Choices: How the Anti-Vaccine Movement Threatens Us All_](https://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Choices-Anti-Vaccine-Movement-Threatens/dp/B005HKUA4O?ie=UTF8&qid=1368027865&ref_=la_B001ILIGP6_1_1&sr=1-1), by Dr. Paul Offit. Offit is a renowned expert in vaccines. If “Vaxxed” scared you, then perhaps reading about what some of these illnesses do to people might wake you up. (Oh, and finally, it’s _you’re_. I’ve noticed that you do that all the time and it’s driving me nuts) ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/60 "2016-06-16T04:55:29Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I do have two questions, though, about Bill Maher’s claim that the swine flu vaccine contained insect repellent, mercury and aluminum: First, is it true, and second, what’s the purpose of having that stuff in there? It doesn’t contain mercury any more than water contains hydrogen gas. It contains thimerosal, a mercury _compound_, which breaks down into ethylmercury in the body. Ethylmercury is easily passed and causes no lasting damage. Contrast to methylmercury, which is the compound more commonly associated with mercury poisoning, which bioaccumulates and can cause serious problems. Thimerosal is present as a preservative, to protect against contamination. Aluminum is present in many vaccines. It acts [as an adjuvant](https://www.ovg.ox.ac.uk/vaccine-ingredients#aluminium), helping slow the distribution of the shot and irritating the immune system to respond to it. I can’t find anything on bug repellent. That said, I wouldn’t trust Bill Maher to be honest or truthful about vaccines; the man is a total quack. I wonder if he still rejects the germ theory of disease? Because that’s totally a thing he did at one point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420.md?page=4)