# New movie "Vaxxed" reopens discussion about the link between autism and vaccines **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 15, 2016, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420 "2016-06-15T13:49:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/61 "2016-06-16T05:07:38Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Why are you worried? If your kid is vaccinated your protected right? Vaccines typically have between a 95% and 99% effectiveness rating. Assuming that my children can all get the vaccine, there’s between a 1/20 and 1/100 chance that it doesn’t take. Meaning that there is still risk there. Of course, that’s _assuming_ that my children can get all the vaccines. Newborns cannot get vaccinated, and they are among the most likely to die from diseases like Measles. Immunocompromised people cannot get vaccinated. The very old often cannot get vaccinated. Particularly with diseases like measles, which are _extremely_ infectious (R0=12-18), it’s important to protect people via herd immunity. But herd immunity breaks down when you have too many unvaccinated people. You seem to be running the antivax playbook. I _strongly_ recommend you stop that shit and get educated. Your bad ideas are literally killing people. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/62 "2016-06-16T05:12:20Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > That said, Andrew Wakefield is a complete fraud that has been thoroughly debunked and disbarred (or whatever the correct term is) from being a doctor. I thought it was “struck off the registry” or “deregistered”. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/63 "2016-06-16T05:32:18Z")
Shouldn’t this crap be in the Pit where it belongs? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/64 "2016-06-16T05:53:12Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Why are you worried? If your kid is vaccinated your protected right? The core purpose of vaccination is not to give the recipient 100% immunity, because you don’t need to reduce the transmission rate to zero to wipe the disease out. All you need to do is reduce the transmission rate below one and any outbreak will naturally die out on its own. It’s like a nuclear chain reaction - give a disease a supercritical mass where each infectee spreads the disease to at least one additional person, and the disease will thrive. Deprive it of that supercritical mass and the outbreak will shrink as the transmission rate isn’t high enough to replace the people who recover from the illness. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/65 "2016-06-16T08:56:59Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > [This site](http://vaccine-schedule.ecdc.europa.eu/Pages/Scheduler.aspx), shows that all the European countries have their own schedules. Which shows that they are not following CDC recommendations, and are indeed making their own schedules: the opposite of one of the ideas the movie sells, and you bought. The rest of the movie’s fare contains exactly as much truth: none at all. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/66 "2016-06-16T11:10:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > **Urbanredneck** , your reasoning in the OP is as faulty as that of people who claim that the intensifier use of “literally” is “incorrect.” You’re being jumped on here for exactly the same reason those folks are jumped on in other threads. > > Just something to think about–do you REALLY want to emulate their unscientific worldview? I think you need an update on what science is, and should stop confusing the OP. It seems very odd to be trying to equate a preference in language style with an evidence-based position on established fact. All the more so when the correlation you imply [is manifestly not true](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19407077&postcount=15). It seems that you literally have a bee in your bonnet over this issue. Try not to let the little fellow sting you. And incidentally, as much as he may be your vaunted idol, Steven Pinker is not always right about all things, neither about subjective matters of style, [nor necessarily about theories of cognition](http://www.lrb.co.uk/v20/n02/jerry-fodor/the-trouble-with-psychological-darwinism). ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/67 "2016-06-16T11:11:18Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Which shows that they are not following CDC recommendations, and are indeed making their own schedules: the opposite of one of the ideas the movie sells, and you bought. > > The rest of the movie’s fare contains exactly as much truth: none at all. Well the movie will probably be in your community soon where you will have a chance to see it yourself and possibly to go to a question and answer session with Dr. Wakefield himself. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/68 "2016-06-16T11:22:29Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Well the movie will probably be in your community soon where you will have a chance to see it yourself and possibly to go to a question and answer session with Dr. Wakefield himself. So the vast amount of actual information we’ve given you rebutting Wakefield’s assertions hasn’t even slightly convinced you? If so, I think you may be impervious to argument. But sure, I’d love to go to a Wakefield Q&A. I could ask him things like “Why did you perform \*\*painful and dangerous procedures \*\*such as lumbar punctures, colonoscopies and barium meals on children without ethical approval?” or “Why did you take blood samples **at a children’s birthday party**?” or "Why did you make ludicrous claims about linking bowel disease with autism based on case studies of **only eight children**? or “How do you sleep at night knowing how many people have died as a result of your lies?” Yes, could be worth going. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/69 "2016-06-16T11:23:30Z")
He is NO LONGER a doctor. Having been stripped of all credentials by every governing body of his once profession. Which should tell you everything you need to know about the veracity of his claims. And no, the movie WON’T be in any theatres near me, or most people. I find it highly unlikely it will get a very wide release, anywhere. But if it’s got a shot anywhere it’s got to be in the US. Where willful ignorance and complete disregard for actual evidence based conclusions seems to be the order of the day. ---
**Author:** ![RobDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f07891/32.png) [@RobDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobDog)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/70 "2016-06-16T11:25:10Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Well the movie will probably be in your community soon where you will have a chance to see it yourself and possibly to go to a question and answer session with Dr. Wakefield himself. Andrew Wakefield. Or to give him his full title, Andrew Wakefield. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/71 "2016-06-16T11:29:19Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Well the movie will probably be in your community soon where you will have a chance to see it yourself and possibly to go to a question and answer session with Dr. Wakefield himself. As already said, it would be highly unethical for Wakefield to use the title “Doctor” under the circumstances, not that it would stop him, considering his past history – the guy is practically the walking definition of the word “fraud”: On 28 January 2010, a five-member statutory tribunal of the GMC found three dozen charges proved, including four counts of dishonesty and 12 counts involving the abuse of developmentally challenged children. The panel ruled that Wakefield had “failed in his duties as a responsible consultant”, acted both against the interests of his patients, and “dishonestly and irresponsibly” in his published research. _The Lancet_ fully retracted the 1998 publication on the basis of the GMC’s findings, noting that elements of the manuscript had been falsified. _The Lancet_’s editor-in-chief Richard Horton said the paper was “utterly false” and that the journal had been “deceived”. Three months following _The Lancet_’s retraction, Wakefield was struck off the UK medical register, with a statement identifying deliberate falsification in the research published in _The Lancet_, and was barred from practising medicine in the UK. > **[Andrew Wakefield](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield)** > > Andrew Jeremy Wakefield (born 3 September 1956)\[a\] is a British fraudster, discredited academic, anti-vaccine activist, and former physician. > He was struck off the medical register for his involvement in The Lancet MMR autism fraud, a 1998 study that fraudulently claimed a link between the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism. He has subsequently become known for anti-vaccination activism. Publicity around it caused a sharp decline in vaccination uptake, leading to a number o... ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/72 "2016-06-16T11:34:04Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > As already said, it would be highly unethical for Wakefield to use the title “Doctor” under the circumstances, not that it would stop him, considering his past history We don’t need to speculate about whether he “would” or “wouldn’t”: the [movie’s own website](http://vaxxedthemovie.com/q-a-filmmakers-schedule/) makes it clear that in fact he **does** : > [@](#): > > Schedule for Q & As with Filmmakers > > The filmmakers, Dr. Andrew Wakefield (Dir), Polly Tommey (Pro), and Del Bigtree (Pro) have been following the release of Vaxxed across the country and conducting question and answer sessions after select shows. Below is a list of their current Q & A schedule for the upcoming weeks. To be updated on new Q & A shows or changes in the schedule please subscribe to our newsletter or follow us on Facebook or Twitter. > > The filmmakers will also be streaming these Q&As on Periscope and Facebook. […] > > Tuesday, June 14th > > Q & As with Dr. Andrew Wakefield, Polly Tommey, and special quest Sheila Ealey, a mother of an autistic child featured in the film, to follow the 6:20pm show in Wichita, KS. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/73 "2016-06-16T11:40:34Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Well the movie will probably be in your community soon where you will have a chance to see it yourself and possibly to go to a question and answer session with Dr. Wakefield himself. Fuck no, if that rat bastard ever comes to my community I’m filing a complaint against him for “crimes against public health”. While that particular bit of the Spanish Penal Code is nowadays used most frequently for illegal drug trafficking, its definition does include peddling medical stuff (including information) which you know to be against public health. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/74 "2016-06-16T11:50:08Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I think you need an update on what science is, and should stop confusing the OP. It seems very odd to be trying to equate a preference in language style with an evidence-based position on established fact. All the more so when the correlation you imply [is manifestly not true](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19407077&postcount=15). It seems that you literally have a bee in your bonnet over this issue. Try not to let the little fellow sting you. And incidentally, as much as he may be your vaunted idol, Steven Pinker is not always right about all things, neither about subjective matters of style, [nor necessarily about theories of cognition](http://www.lrb.co.uk/v20/n02/jerry-fodor/the-trouble-with-psychological-darwinism). Thanks, **wolfpup**. Urbanredneck, **this is what anti-vaxxers sound like**. Lots of official-looking evidence that turns out to be totally irrelevant, combined with sneering attacks on the character of the folks with science on their side, and precious little else. Are you comfortable with that? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/75 "2016-06-16T11:53:15Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Tetanus is an extremely painful way to die – and unlike these other diseases, it’s not contagious – you get it from rust, or soil. If you don’t get a tetanus shot after a cut, and it becomes infected, you will die, and it will be a pretty agonizing death. Er… yes, but no. Rust does not somehow create _clostridium tetani_ bacteria. It’s true that rusty metal is a great place for the endospores _c. tetani_ uses to wait out a welcoming environment, but that’s basically because of the rough surface rusty metal has and the lack of free oxygen in rusty metal which is luxury to an anaerobic beastie like _c. tetani_. Also if you get a cut and it gets infected with, say, _aeromonas hydrophila_, tetanus vaccines are meaningless. Also the death rate for _clostridium tetani_ is not close to 100%. None of those corrections have anything to do with the basic point, which is that only a fool would fail to vaccinate. But in the service of telling the true facts, we should acknowledge that tetanus is not a “you will die,” infection. You’ll die about ten percent of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/76 "2016-06-16T13:10:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You’ll die about ten percent of the time. I’m pretty sure that if you die, it’ll be 100% of the times you do it. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/77 "2016-06-16T13:12:49Z")
Well, can’t let **Bricker** get by with being the only Truth Enforcer in this thread. > [@Budget Player Cadet](#): > > Vaccines typically have between a 95% and 99% effectiveness rating. The best ones approach that (i.e. the measles component of MMR), but some others are not nearly as good at inducing immunity (for instance the mumps component of MMR, pertussis component of DTaP and influenza), with mumps and pertussis immunity declining over time. Still, even less than perfect vaccines commonly result in less serious illness if one does get infected, which could be important to parents who don’t want to see kids in the hospital coughing their lungs out. And the impressive but non-complete immunity offered by vaccines reinforces the need for high vaccine uptake rates, so that herd immunity doesn’t give outbreaks a chance to occur and expose those who are susceptible. > [@Sitnam](#): > > Hell, I’d like to hear them explain why all medical professionals immunize themselves and their loved ones. Not quite. The vast majority do (including pediatricians), but there’s a small yet disturbing minority who omit or delay vaccines and/or encourage parents to do so (google Jay Gordon and Bob Sears). > [@elbows](#): > > (Wakefield)) is NO LONGER a doctor It pains me to say this, but unless the institution(s) who awarded him degrees manage to revoke them, he’s still a doctor. I agree that it’s deceptive for him to presented as “Dr. Wakefield” to audiences, unless they are also informed that he was struck off the medical register for ethical violations and is not licensed to practice medicine anywhere. Speaking of “sneering attacks on…character”, I’d like to commit one on Neil Z. Miller, author of multiple antivaccine books and a new article alleging that combining childhood vaccines at one doctor’s visit is not safe (it’s getting a rave reception at Age of Autism, home of virulent antivax stylings). In addition to the article’s claims being thoroughly bogus (as documented [here](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/06/16/combining-childhood-vaccines-at-one-visit-is-not-safe-not-so/)), Neil Z. Miller is also known for his claims of having communicated with extraterrestrials (and facilitating contacts with them through his daughter). The antivax movement is full of such loons, conspiracy-shouters, uneducated and mis-educated fringe characters and struck-off doctors (Mark Geier is another one whose had medical licenses taken away). Citing such people as authorities merely highlights the bankruptcy of antivax “science”. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/78 "2016-06-16T13:14:21Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Well the movie will probably be in your community soon where you will have a chance to see it yourself and possibly to go to a question and answer session with Dr. Wakefield himself. Just so you understand something, Wakefield is not anti-vax. He was developing (and patented) his own vaccine. He and his business partners were looking to eliminate the competition(the MMR vaccine). ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/79 "2016-06-16T13:30:18Z")
[Brian Deer](http://briandeer.com/mmr/lancet-summary.htm) is a British investigative reporter who pretty much blew the whole thing open on Wakefield. The link goes to the entire series of stories he wrote layoing out the whole case. Bonus: Wakefield’s [patent application](http://briandeer.com/wakefield/vaccine-patent.htm) for his vaccine. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/80 "2016-06-16T13:56:24Z")
It’s first week it made… (Drum roll) …$41,000. (That’s funny!) On one screen! (That’s hilarious!) Yeah, NOT coming to a theatre near you, I expect! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420.md?page=5)