# New movie "Vaxxed" reopens discussion about the link between autism and vaccines **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 15, 2016, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420 "2016-06-15T13:49:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/81 "2016-06-16T14:22:59Z")
Coming to a CRT TV screen in a seedy bar near you soon! If we can convince the bartender to let us use the DVD player. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/82 "2016-06-16T16:11:05Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Why should I care if my kids vaxxed? Because his sister is a newborn, too young to be vaxxed. Your kid brings it to school, passes it to my kids hands and he passes it to his sister. Who dies from it. Or go see the sequel Vaxxed II … where Johnny visits Grandma in the retirement home and unbelievably, to everyone’s surprise, the poor old lady dies a horribly painful death from an acute case of measles encephalitis with a side order of pneumonia. Of course, not before passing it along to at least a dozen other elderly neighbours in the residence. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/83 "2016-06-16T16:33:00Z")
> [@Sparky812](#): > > Or go see the sequel Vaxxed II … where Johnny visits Grandma in the retirement home and unbelievably, to everyone’s surprise, the poor old lady dies a horribly painful death from an acute case of measles encephalitis with a side order of pneumonia. Of course, not before passing it along to at least a dozen other elderly neighbours in the residence. Suck It Mandy’s Marvelous Measles! ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/84 "2016-06-16T16:43:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Thanks, **wolfpup**. Urbanredneck, **this is what anti-vaxxers sound like**. Lots of official-looking evidence that turns out to be totally irrelevant, combined with sneering attacks on the character of the folks with science on their side, and precious little else. > > Are you comfortable with that? Says the guy who tried to derail the thread with some completely irrelevant babble about the word “literally” because he thought it was a wonderfully clever opportunity for a gratuitous off-topic insult, and who thinks that when I post a link strongly condemning anti-vaxers and urging respect for science that I must be anti-vax and anti-science. And incidentally, pointing out that a respected cognitive scientist disagrees with Pinker on fundamental issues in the theory of mind isn’t “sneering”, it’s a statement of fact, and the kind of disagreement that is common in science. If I am “sneering” at anything it’s your indiscriminate hero worship and lack of critical thinking and pointless insults. I hope that the OP has now been disabused of the notion that there is any possible link between vaccines and autism and that it’s clear that Wakefield is a reprehensible fraud, but I will refrain from further comments on your hijack in case there is more to be said on the actual topic. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/85 "2016-06-16T16:49:17Z")
UrbanRedneck, what is your position regarding all of the evidence (cited here and elsewhere) that the original Wakefield study was not only flawed scientifically but intentionally skewed to get the result he wanted? And the thorough denouncement of Wakefield by the medical community? The invalidity of the original study is glaringly obvious if you do even a minimal amount of reading on the topic. And the medical community, almost all of it, has shunned Wakefield as a dangerous, dishonest charlatan. This is a community of people who know far more about vaccines and safety than you or I do. Before moving on to any other issues regarding vaccines, how do you dismiss those points? Those points discredit the entire basis of this “debate.” Surely you don’t just say that it’s all part of the Big Pharma conspiracy. That’s too easy. I’m seriously interested in hearing how you reconcile those points with any continuation of the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/86 "2016-06-16T17:20:06Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Just so you understand something, Wakefield is not anti-vax. He was developing (and patented) his own vaccine. He and his business partners were looking to eliminate the competition(the MMR vaccine). Yes, he was hoping to profit by creating a backlash against the MMR. But he is also deeply antivaccine (or putting on a very convincing show in order to finance a high-end lifestyle). Not only does he still insist that the MMR vaccine causes autism, he encourages antivax groups (in part through speaking engagements) and is a hero to them - a role he has never shied away from. His antivax views have come to the fore again with the release of “Vaxxed”. \*"…in several cities, the Vaxxed team – discredited scientist Andrew Wakefield, his collaborator Polly Tommey, and producer Del Bigtree, and occasionally others – followed certain screenings with a question and answer session. In those sessions they made false claims that could mislead parents away from protecting their children by vaccinating. The Vaxxed team claimed that preventable diseases were not prevented by vaccines. Among other things they claimed that vaccines were both ineffective and unsafe, ignoring abundant research showing the opposite: modern vaccines are extremely safe and effective. Del Bigtree falsely described the hepatitis B vaccine – that protects against a virus that can cause liver disease and cancer – as “injecting a sexually transmitted disease”, potentially scaring parents off protecting their children against this dangerous infection. Finally, the Vaxxed team warned listeners against seeing pediatricians, because they can’t be trusted (see here and here for more of their misrepresentations and misinformation)."\* [http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/tag/andrew-wakefield/](http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/tag/andrew-wakefield/) Has Wakefield ever publicly rejected such nonsense? If so, I’ve never heard of it. Do not be deceived by those who claim they are not antivaccine, “just pro-safe vaccine”, but who repeat false antivax tropes ad nauseum. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/87 "2016-06-16T17:24:02Z")
Its slow here, so. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > After watching this here are some recommendations I have: > > 1. That there should be serious research made about the link between the MMR vaccine and autism done by major scientific bodies both inside and outside the US that examines autism of both vaccinated and un-vaccinated children. We should not just rely on the American CDC. As noted before, there is a TON of research on vaccines. To date, only the corrupt, money-grubbing Wakefield ever found anything and he lied and tortured both kids and data to get that result. > [@](#): > > 1. Their should be additional studies looking at a possible link between an increase in autism of black children especially boys when vaccinated according to CDC guidelines. A handful of desperate antivaxxers have been trying to torture data to get some kind of racial result ever since a minor blip appear in one Meta result. What the idiotic anti-vaxxers don’t realize is how a blip can happen and doesn’t mean jack squat > [@](#): > > 1. That parents should be allowed to opt out of CDC vaccination guidelines and instead, be allowed to let their children be vaccinated when they are older and be allowed to be vaccinated with single does vaccines for each separate illness. WHy on earth should we let parents spread the plague because they are afraid of needles coming near their precious princes and princesses? > [@](#): > > 1. Congress should repeal the legislation that shields big pharma companies from being sued. Pharma companies can be sued. If you are thinking of the special vaccine court, well that is a brutal neccessity brought on by lawsuit-happy people and lawyers, and the low profitability of vaccine production. > [@](#): > > 1. Countries outside the US not follow US CDC guidelines and instead, create their own. Umm, they kind of do that? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/88 "2016-06-16T17:36:09Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I have a son with autism and like those in the movie, he didnt show symptoms until getting the MMR. I think this is the primary reason many parents of autistic children fall for the anti-vax fallacy. When you see your child suddenly lose skills that they previously had your mind instantly tries to see what recent things could have caused this regression, and low and behold it almost always starts shortly after the MMR vaccine. But this is not an issue of cause an effect, it is simply and issue of when in development these events occur. MMR is generally given at around 1 year old and autism symptoms start appearing at 1-2 years old. But the same argument could be used to say that the MMR vaccine leads to walking, since most children start taking their first steps at 1-2 years, (shortly after the MMR vaccine!). Going further up the list you may find that potty training leads to temper tantrums at the grocery store, and the use of acne medication leads to to no longer wanting to be seen in public with ones parents. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > 1. Their should be additional studies looking at a possible link between an increase in autism of black children especially boys when vaccinated according to CDC guidelines. This illustrates the danger of post-hoc analyses and ignoring multiple comparisons. One can take pretty much any large study and by looking at enough subsets find one that falls below the arbitraty p\<0.05 level of significance. See the following illustration [882: Significant - explain xkcd](http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/882:_Significant) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/89 "2016-06-16T18:16:37Z")
[Just leaving this here.](http://imgur.com/gallery/uZC5fF9) ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/90 "2016-06-16T18:18:32Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I think this is the primary reason many parents of autistic children fall for the anti-vax fallacy. When you see your child suddenly lose skills that they previously had your mind instantly tries to see what recent things could have caused this regression, and low and behold it almost always starts shortly after the MMR vaccine. But this is not an issue of cause an effect, it is simply and issue of when in development these events occur. MMR is generally given at around 1 year old and autism symptoms start appearing at 1-2 years old. But the same argument could be used to say that the MMR vaccine leads to walking, since most children start taking their first steps at 1-2 years, (shortly after the MMR vaccine!) This. It’s a coincidental-timing fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/91 "2016-06-16T18:19:24Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Pharma companies can be sued. If you are thinking of the special vaccine court, well that is a brutal neccessity brought on by lawsuit-happy people and lawyers, and the low profitability of vaccine production. Vaccine makers can also be sued (i.e. for a manufacturing problem), just not over allegations of design defect, ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/92 "2016-06-16T18:35:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Er… yes, but no. Rust does not somehow create _clostridium tetani_ bacteria. It’s true that rusty metal is a great place for the endospores _c. tetani_ uses to wait out a welcoming environment, but that’s basically because of the rough surface rusty metal has and the lack of free oxygen in rusty metal which is luxury to an anaerobic beastie like _c. tetani_. > > Also if you get a cut and it gets infected with, say, _aeromonas hydrophila_, tetanus vaccines are meaningless. Also the death rate for _clostridium tetani_ is not close to 100%. > > None of those corrections have anything to do with the basic point, which is that only a fool would fail to vaccinate. But in the service of telling the true facts, we should acknowledge that tetanus is not a “you will die,” infection. You’ll die about ten percent of the time. I wasn’t aware of that. Thanks. I always thought it was fatal in all conditions. It’s still a nasty fucking disease, and I think any parent who allows their kid to die of an easily treated illness should be infected with it. Also, here’s the Wiki entry on whooping cough. I link to it because it includes a film clip of someone with the [disease](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pertussis) – just the sound of the poor kid coughing is enough to chill your blood. I’ll be damned if I would ever allow a child to risk such a thing. Putting even your own child at risk is fucking sick. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/93 "2016-06-16T19:03:38Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > This. > > It’s a coincidental-timing fallacy. Yep, by the same token you would also expect the same correlation between late MMR vaccinations and late onset autism. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/94 "2016-06-16T19:06:17Z")
> [@Sparky812](#): > > Yep, by the same token you would also expect the same correlation between late MMR vaccinations and late onset autism. Autism r trixy that way. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/95 "2016-06-16T20:21:35Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > who thinks that when I post a link strongly condemning anti-vaxers and urging respect for science that I must be anti-vax and anti-science. Huh? I don’t think you’re anti-vax. Nor, on this issue, is your position anti-science. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/96 "2016-06-16T22:57:54Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Fuck no, if that rat bastard ever comes to my community I’m filing a complaint against him for “crimes against public health”. While that particular bit of the Spanish Penal Code is nowadays used most frequently for illegal drug trafficking, its definition does include peddling medical stuff (including information) which you know to be against public health. Well I dont know where you live but here is a [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?sns=fb&v=QudeR6ngOMk&app=desktop) made 6/14/16 with Del Bigtree discussing the movie with regents from the University of California about bringing the movie there. So it looks like it will be in California soon. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/97 "2016-06-16T23:03:17Z")
**Nava** lives in Spain. There is an independent theater here in Portland showing it. It’s a pretty good market for it, sadly. But since you’re around, **Urbanredneck** , would you care to address any of the comments and questions that have been directed at you in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/98 "2016-06-16T23:09:11Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > It’s first week it made… (Drum roll) …$41,000. (That’s funny!) > > On one screen! (That’s hilarious!) > > Yeah, NOT coming to a theatre near you, I expect! This[site](http://vaxxedthemovie.com/) is the official movie site and it shows cities its coming to (such as Seattle and Portland). Is yours one of them? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/99 "2016-06-16T23:10:12Z")
> [@andros](#): > > **Nava** lives in Spain. > > There is an independent theater here in Portland showing it. It’s a pretty good market for it, sadly. > But since you’re around, **Urbanredneck** , would you care to address any of the comments and questions that have been directed at you in this thread? Its hard to when I have a dozen people pounding on me. I’ll try later. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420/100 "2016-06-16T23:17:33Z")
This is one of the worst hoaxes in the history of science. The movie is bullcrap of course. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-movie-vaxxed-reopens-discussion-about-the-link-between-autism-and-vaccines/757420.md?page=6)