# new music **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 26, 2000, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749 "2000-11-26T10:45:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749/41 "2000-11-27T22:44:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\*Uhh… no, I didn’t mention that. You may be confused between Christopher Cross, who sucked ass, and Chris De Burgh, who did “Lady in Red” and was (and is) talented. > \*\* ACK! My bad. My sincerest apologies, and gosh is my face red. (Get it? Red?..bah.) _Sailing_ wasn’t a bad tune, though. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749/42 "2000-11-28T02:09:05Z")
OK, like I said before, if rap doesn’t require talent, why aren’t you people making millions by releasing your own hip hop albums? Maybe, just maybe, there’s more to it than talking about your dick over a beat. I’m not a HUGE rap fan, but there are some artists I think have made compelling music in the genre; as already mentioned, Public Enemy and De La Soul were pretty (musically) innovative, and check out Handsome Boy Modeling School for a current example. The funny thing is, replace the word “rap” in your rant with “rock & roll” and you’re making the exact same argument your parents or grandparents made when it first came on the scene. It was accused of being made by no-talent non-musicians, inciting violence, and, to my mind possibly the most apt comparison, was demonized because it was considered “race” music. Making claims like these is a sign of encroaching conservativism. You can’t dismiss an entire category of music as being crap unless you’re extremely closed-minded; also, it means you may be missing some great songs. Do you really think it’s that easy to sample snippets of songs and rework them into a collage that becomes an entirely new entity (I’m not talking about the hacks who sample entire melody lines from popular songs, a la MC Hammer or Vanilla Ice)? And, Rick, since you’re such a Dylan fan, maybe you should check out some of the rhymes these guys are laying down - there’s some incredible verbal creativity and thought-provoking lyricism out there. Anyway, there are talented artists in every field, they’re just usually not the ones who make it onto MTV. The new can co-exist with the old, unless you happen to be stuck in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749/43 "2000-11-28T02:45:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by woodstockbirdybird \* > **OK, like I said before, if rap doesn’t require talent, why aren’t you people making millions by releasing your own hip hop albums?** Just because I never miss a chance to poke a hole in faulty logic, why aren’t you winning the lottery every day? There’s no talent involved in that. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749/44 "2000-11-28T03:02:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Just because I never miss a chance to poke a hole in faulty logic, why aren’t you winning the lottery every day? There’s no talent involved in that. \*\* OK, speaking of faulty logic, what would the odds be of me winning the lottery EVERY DAY? Is it possible? Sure; it’s also possible the Duke of Shrewsbury’s going to be magically reincarnated and fly out of my ass doing cartwheels, but I don’t think it’s going to happen. What are the odds of me winning the lottery even once compared to the odds of Randy et al. becoming rap stars? I don’t know, but I’d think the odds would be in his favor. Besides, by saying “rappers are untalented/not musicians, etc.” they’re basically saying that anyone CAN do it; by contrast, anyone COULD win the lottery, but that’s a different argument. Am I being clear enough? Besides, I never buy the tickets. ---
**Author:** ![Road\_Rash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@Road\_Rash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Road_Rash)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749/45 "2000-11-28T03:17:44Z")
I am a sucker for a good pop song, and some years are better than others, lately it kind of sucks. The latin rythms that have come in is nice, but mostly it now sucks. Six years ago when Pearl Jam, the Red Hot Chili Peppers, and chick rockers galore ruled pop was fun… Definitely a high point in pop. Actually late 80’s, early 90’s pop was cool also. Madonna, DeeeLite, Depeche Mode, The Sundays. Even the one-hit wonders (Right Said Fred) were good silly fun. When backstreet boys and N-sych fans get a little older, so will the quality of pop I hope. It all goes in cycles. The latin infusions has potential. By the way, an above post was poking fun at Duran Duran being compared to the Beatles. I agree and Duran Duran likely does as well, but they were guys who wrote their own song and played their own instruments, and were backed up by top notch sound engineers. They put out a lot of good pop, as well as sucky stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749/46 "2000-11-28T03:34:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by woodstockbirdybird \* > **OK, speaking of faulty logic, what would the odds be of me winning the lottery EVERY DAY? Is it possible? Sure; it’s also possible the Duke of Shrewsbury’s going to be magically reincarnated and fly out of my ass doing cartwheels, but I don’t think it’s going to happen. What are the odds of me winning the lottery even once compared to the odds of Randy et al. becoming rap stars? I don’t know, but I’d think the odds would be in his favor.** And I think you are seriously underestimating the number of people who are legitimately talented rappers (or any musician) who never made it to the big time. > [@](#): > > \*\* Besides, by saying “rappers are untalented/not musicians, etc.” they’re basically saying that anyone CAN do it; by contrast, anyone COULD win the lottery, but that’s a different argument. Am I being clear enough? > Besides, I never buy the tickets. \*\* Exactly. And he’s never tried to be a rap star, either, effectively not buying a ticket. That’s not to say I agree with his opinion of rap, but your logic is pretty weak here. ---
**Author:** ![Nacho4Sara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Nacho4Sara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nacho4Sara)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749/47 "2000-11-28T03:42:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Since I posted my opinion here on the downfall of music in the last few decades, I’ve been surprised at the number of people attacking me personnaly for my opinion. See if you think someone is an a-hole for having an opinion that differs from yours, doesn’t that kinda make you the same kind of a-hole? I don’t think you are an asshole for having an opinion different from mine, Randy. I think you are acting like an asshole for not accepting the possibility that other people might have viewpoints that differ from yours. > [@](#): > > Rap as Legitimate Music? Don’t make me laugh. Bob Dylan has been around for over 30 yrs, Neil Young, and Carlos Santana as long. You know, _gasp_ some people do not like Bob Dylan. Since I’d venture a guess that most teenagers are more familiar with _Time on my Mind_ than _Blonde on Blonde_ (which gets my vote for his career best) than I can absolutely understand why 17 year olds don’t like him. He sounds like he’s singing through a throat full of gravel _and_ cancerous growths. I have eight Bob Dylan albums, and _Time on my Mind_ is the worst. And it got airplay on MTV when it was released. Thus I can understand exactly why people who are hearing him for the first time today do not like him. > [@](#): > > You’re gonna try and compare the beautiful, poetic, prophetic lyrics and music of Bob Dylan to ANY Hip Hop or Rap around now? I know this might be hard for you to believe, but try for me Randy. Pretty please. Squeeze the ol’ thinking cap over your mammothly contorted head and make the face you do when you are trying real hard to shit. Ok? Here we go: When I go to a club, I _enjoy_ rap music. And dance and electronica and trance music especially. I can _dance_ to it, which is the purpose of going to clubs. I love to shake my booty and it’s hard to do that to Neil Sedaca. OTOH, nothing can compare in lyrical beauty to “Wonderful Tonight.” No song haunts me more than “Unchained Melody.” No song captures out media-cized society more accurately than “A Day in the Life.” And the first song that will play at my wedding will be “(I Can’t Help) Falling in Love With You.” But that doesn’t mean I don’t like rap. “Drug Ballad” by Eminem and “Maniac” by Eve captures that party-hoppin-rollin-crazy-puking vibe better than any others I’ve heard. “Love Is Blind” by Eve completely _vibrates_ with the pain of losing a friend to abuse. Da Brat makes me laugh my ass off. _Things Fall Apart_ by the Roots is the best rap album I’ve ever owned. Ever. When I saw them in concert, the bass guitarist went on a ten-minute riff that kicked ass, it even compared to Eric Clapton (whom I’ve also seen in concert). He broke a damn string. I’ve never ever seen a musician more into his music than that guitarist in that moment. Issues change. Society evolves. Songs like “I Wanna Hold Your Hand” no longer apply to today’s youth. Let’s be realistic. Kids who are 17 right now know more about drugs and sex than they did 40 years ago. The music only reflects what the people want to listen to. And FTR, if you want to talk about **lyrics** , let’s discuss Tori Amos, PJ Harvey, The Verve, Jeff Buckley, Sade, Fiona Apple, Radiohead, Lenny Kravitz (he’s done more than remake “American Woman,” ya know), Wilco, Amel Larrieaux, and Alanis Morrisette. If you have not listened to any of these artists, than you have no credibility in saying that musicians today have no talent. Sheesh. Our purpose, however elusive, is to fight ignorance, not promote it, as you are clearly doing here. ---
**Author:** ![Alphagene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Alphagene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alphagene)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749/48 "2000-11-28T03:52:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cooldude \* > **The latin infusions has potential.** I think it’s already dead. Well dead in the mainstream, anyway. Latin music is always going to be popular in Latino communities, obviously. But have you heard Ricky Martin’s latest? Neither have I. Think anyone’s gonna buy Jennifer Lopez’s second album? I doubt it. I think the so-called latin explosion is ultimately going to have a mainstream half-life just slightly longer than that whole mainstream swing revival from the year before. Or the ska revival the year before that. ---
**Author:** ![heyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@heyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heyjoe)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749/49 "2000-11-28T03:59:46Z")
but for those who say today’s music bites, i have just four words: Rick Dees, ‘Disco Duck’ chris ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749/50 "2000-11-28T04:02:39Z")
hmph Kool Keith is still the best most unapreciated rapper and general hiop-hop artist out there. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749/51 "2000-11-28T04:13:34Z")
> [@](#): > > And I think you are seriously underestimating the number of people who are legitimately talented rappers (or any musician) who never made it to the big time. \*\* Possibly, but in using your analogy I think you’re seriously overestimating my chances of winning the lottery. > [@](#): > > Exactly. And he’s never tried to be a rap star, either, effectively not buying a ticket. > > That’s not to say I agree with his opinion of rap, but your logic is pretty weak here. \*\* My point wasn’t really about me not buying the ticket - just an attempt at a witty throwaway. My point was that there’s a difference between the (theoretical) possibility of something happening (winning the lotto) and the implied certainty of an artistic career being attained by merely applying oneself to it irregardless of talent (I realize he didn’t come right out and say “I can rap”, but the message was: This doesn’t take any skill; even I could do what they do if I so wished). Or maybe I’m reading too much into it. In any case, it seems we could both use some work on our logical thinking skills. ---
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749/52 "2000-11-28T04:33:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by woodstockbirdybird \* > **Possibly, but in using your analogy I think you’re seriously overestimating my chances of winning the lottery.** If we go by the NYState Numbers game 3 ball daily game, then no…I don’t think I am. 3 numbers equals a 1 in 1000 chance of winning. I think that’s a fairly reasonable estimate of the number of failed rappers and other musisicians, or at least underappreciated ones, compared to the number of stars. > [@](#): > > \*\*My point wasn’t really about me not buying the ticket - just an attempt at a witty throwaway. My point was that there’s a difference between the (theoretical) possibility of something happening (winning the lotto) and the implied certainty of an artistic career being attained by merely applying oneself to it irregardless of talent (I realize he didn’t come right out and say “I can rap”, but the message was: This doesn’t take any skill; even I could do what they do if I so wished). Or maybe I’m reading too much into it. In any case, it seems we could both use some work on our logical thinking skills. \*\* It doesn’t neccessarily take SKILL. It could also take luck, just as winning the lottery does. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749/53 "2000-11-28T04:47:27Z")
OK, I don’t know what the NY daily 3 ball game is, but it doesn’t sound like it’s exactly a multi-million dollar payoff, which is what I assumed you meant when you said “winning the lottery.” I admit that my odds would be much better at winning $5 or $100 than the big jackpot. So I guess I was making assumptions about this point. Also, I don’t question the fact that there ARE untalented rappers who have gotten famous through sheer luck, just as there are in every genre of music. But I don’t think that they have ALL been awarded record deals solely based on luck; obviously (speaking of odds) some of them got there because they were talented and seriously impressed somebody with their skills. On the points of the OP I think we’re in agreement. Now we’re just trying to one-up each other on minute unrelated points concerning our ability to think rationally. I take my share of the blame for this, and you can respond as you wish, but I don’t want to keep arguing with and possibly alienate somebody who’s obviously got a keen intellect and could be a valuable ally here. Like my dad always told me:“Always try to make friends with people. You never know when you’ll need to exploit them later.” ---
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749/54 "2000-11-28T05:02:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by woodstockbirdybird \* > \*\*On the points of the OP I think we’re in agreement. Now we’re just trying to one-up each other on minute unrelated points concerning our ability to think rationally. I take my share of the blame for this, and you can respond as you wish, but I don’t want to keep arguing with and possibly alienate somebody who’s obviously got a keen intellect and could be a valuable ally here. Like my dad always told me:“Always try to make friends with people. You never know when you’ll need to exploit them later.” \*\* Amen to that. I’m basically just arguing for the sake of arguing, after all, this is the Pit. I allow myself to do that way too much. I’ll take a step back. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749/55 "2000-11-28T06:16:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Amen to that. I’m basically just arguing for the sake of arguing, after all, this is the Pit. \*\* Yeah, me too. Actually, this was the most fun I’ve had all week, which says something about my social life. OK, enough. Sorry about the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Randy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2acd7d/32.png) [@Randy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749/56 "2000-11-28T08:05:01Z")
That dude up there accused me of “conservatism”. Look, just because I live in Indiana, and voted for George W., how could you accuse me of such a thing? It doesn’t matter. I still hate Rap, I still hate the sideways hat, the Gold hanging around the neck, and the hand language. I hate the callousness and vulgarity of the lyrics. I absolutely abhore Rappers glorifying violence and that violence seems to follow these guys around. I hate the fact that some kids think these “artists” are cool (phat?), and try to emulate them in word and deed. I can’t stand the whole unloving, disrespectful, hard-hearted, arrogant and lawless culture that is associated with this “art form”, and to say it again, I hate the fact that some Legitimate and beautiful music is going unheard while the Record Companies shove this garbage down our throat. What can I say but what I feel? Intolerant?, well no more so than you who are intolerant of my opinion. I’ve found that society is growing more and more intolerant of a conservative viewpoint. Whatever. It’s America. You think this is bad, you should hear my opinion on gays, abortion and capital punishment. So long. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749/57 "2000-11-28T09:21:27Z")
> [@](#): > > I can’t stand the whole unloving, disrespectful, hard-hearted, arrogant and lawless culture that is associated with this “art form”, and to say it again Just to point it out Randy, but when Strauss first performed his waltzes, he was critizised as inventing the devil’s music. While I agree that there is too much violence in Rap music today, don’t judge the barn by the colour of the door. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749/58 "2000-11-28T09:21:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nacho4Sara \* > And FTR, if you want to talk about **lyrics** , let’s discuss (…) Radiohead, (…) and Alanis Morrisette. If you have not listened to any of these artists, than you have no credibility in saying that musicians today have no talent. Eh, any message Radiohead’s lyrics might have is entirely lost in the presentation. Same for Alanis Morrisette. I don’t know if I would say Radiohead has no talent, since all I know about them is from listening to their music. I will say, however, that if they do have talent, it is not related to music. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749/59 "2000-11-28T10:01:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Randy \* > \*\* > It doesn’t matter. I still hate Rap, \*\* well good for you…I hope that someday, when I’m older, I can become stiff and judgemental about an entire form of art. Maybe hate all watercolors or all sculpture, or maybe all movies or something… > [@](#): > > \*\* > I still hate the sideways hat, the Gold hanging around the neck, and the hand language. \*\* WTF?! what does this have to do with rap? This is like saying I like paintings but hate smocks…So I don’t look at art… > [@](#): > > \*\* > I hate the callousness and vulgarity of the lyrics. \*\* Then listen to rap that’s not callous or vulgar. Oh wait, it all is cause the great randy says so. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I absolutely abhore Rappers glorifying violence and that violence seems to follow these guys around. \*\* then listen to rap that is non–violent. And of course rock has never been violent, country has never glorified violence, opera has never glorified violence… :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > \*\* > I hate the fact that some kids think these “artists” are cool (phat?), and try to emulate them in word and deed. I can’t stand the whole unloving, disrespectful, hard-hearted, arrogant and lawless culture that is associated with this “art form”, \*\* thank you for providing me with laughs randy. Hope you stick around and continue to entertain me. > [@](#): > > \*\* > and to say it again, I hate the fact that some Legitimate and beautiful music is going unheard while the Record Companies shove this garbage down our throat. \*\* art should be enjoyed. If someone enjoys Matisse more than Miro who the fuck are you to tell them that they are looking at garbage…If someone likes The Coup more than your horn who the fuck are you to interfere with their ability to enjoy it? Oh I forgot…the great randy. > [@](#): > > \*\* > What can I say but what I feel? Intolerant?, well no more so than you who are intolerant of my opinion. \*\* oooh nice dodge. Unfortunately it’s not true. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I’ve found that society is growing more and more intolerant of a conservative viewpoint. Whatever. It’s America. You think this is bad, you should hear my opinion on gays, abortion and capital punishment. So long. \*\* I’m sure… please play again. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749/60 "2000-11-28T10:08:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by oldscratch \* > \*\*Art should be enjoyed. If someone enjoys Matisse more than Miro who the fuck are you to tell them that they are looking at garbage…If someone likes The Coup more than your horn who the fuck are you to interfere with their ability to enjoy it? Oh I forgot…the great randy. > \*\* Miro sucks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-music/42749.md?page=4)