# New Name for Gulf War II - The Chickenhawk War! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 26, 2004, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676 "2004-12-26T13:17:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676/41 "2004-12-27T13:49:14Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Tell that to JFK, McGovern, McCain, Kerry, Eisenhower, and Washington to name a few. Unless I’m mistaken, all of these men were in the military BEFORE they became legislators. I can’t think of any legislators that gave up their seats to actually fight in an armed conflict. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676/42 "2004-12-27T13:52:56Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > **Misnomer,** it’s a fairly recent term, according to [this listing in Wikipedia.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickenhawk) I cannot provide a specific column, so I can’t correct the Wikipedia article, yet, but Mike Royko was using the term “chickenhawk” in the late 1980s to refer to the sabre rattling among the supporters of G. H. W. Bush–and Royko wrote of borrowing the term from another pundit, so it was both coined and in use at least 15 years ago. (And I’m pretty sure that Royko used the compound word, not the two word epithet.) ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676/43 "2004-12-27T15:08:26Z")
> [@plnnr](#): > > Unless I’m mistaken, all of these men were in the military BEFORE they became legislators. I can’t think of any legislators that gave up their seats to actually fight in an armed conflict. The closest thing I can think of is in 1898 when Teddy Roosevelt resigned as Assistant Secretary of the Navy to fight in the Spanish-American War. That would be somewhat equivalent to Paul Wolfowitz quitting and going off to war. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676/44 "2004-12-27T15:09:59Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > … Paul Wolfowitz quitting and going off to war. We can only dream 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676/45 "2004-12-27T15:26:53Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Personally I think it’d just enrage a bunch of Americans. > > "What, you’re saying our Glorious Leader has done wrong? What’re you, un-umeriken? " Oh, sure, it’ll enrage a BUNCH of people on the right. That’s and ADVANTAGE as far as I"m concerned – might make them do something stupid. There’s no point in trying to convert the right, they’re not going to change. The idea is to get people in the middle to think differently about the war and its leaders. That it could do. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676/46 "2004-12-27T21:00:40Z")
Just wanted to say nothing beats our veery own Cecil’s term, “Damn Fool War.” It’s a damn fool war, started by twice-damned fools, and supported by trice-damned cowards. And getting to say “damn fool” all the time and annoy all the “moral values” folks would be an added bonus. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676/47 "2004-12-27T21:11:28Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Just wanted to say nothing beats our veery own Cecil’s term, “Damn Fool War.” > > It’s a damn fool war, started by twice-damned fools, and supported by trice-damned cowards. > > And getting to say “damn fool” all the time and annoy all the “moral values” folks would be an added bonus. 😉 Just wanted to say that a lot of the “trice-damned cowards” actually went over there. But I’m sure that that doesn’t even make a dent in your thinking, so keep using that wide paintbrush. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676/48 "2004-12-27T22:06:23Z")
So where’s your righteous indignation when the conservatives swing that “amoral liberals” brush around, **Doors?** Or are you only selectively opposed to broad brushstrokes? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676/49 "2004-12-27T22:55:43Z")
> [@](#): > > The closest thing I can think of is in 1898 when Teddy Roosevelt resigned as Assistant Secretary of the Navy to fight in the Spanish-American War. Lyndon Johnson resigned from Congress to serve in the military during WWII. Granted, he was stationed mainly in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676/50 "2004-12-28T00:37:45Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > So where’s your righteous indignation when the conservatives swing that “amoral liberals” brush around, **Doors?** Or are you only selectively opposed to broad brushstrokes? Oooooh, you got me there! :rolleyes: Once upon a time I used to be that guy. I grew up. When can I expect you to do the same? As for your statement, it was outright incorrect and slanderous and you know it was, so why don’t you dispense with the bullshit and admit it? Confession is good for the soul, and for all the bullshit you put on these boards you’ve got a lot of confessing to do. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676/51 "2004-12-28T04:25:34Z")
Lets translate your post, shall we? I’ll use small words so that you can understand. > [@Bricker](#): > > No gay marriage. Treat them homersexuals like the second-class citizens they deserve to be, the perverts. > [@](#): > > Tax cuts. Fewer textbooks, less housing and healthcare for the poor. More yachts for Repbulicans! > [@](#): > > Less government interference. More power to the rich, less power to the poor. > [@](#): > > Less political correctness. As **Little Nemo** said, more nigger jokes. > [@](#): > > Welcoming religion into the public sphere. Superiority for Christians. Inferiority for others! (Possibly American flags for all). > [@](#): > > Oppose immorality. Bring the government into the bedrooms of the nation. > [@](#): > > Be definite about right and wrong. Shut off your brain and let Pat Robertson’s opinions become _your_ opinions. > [@](#): > > Support traditional American institutions - Boy Scouts, church, marriage between a man and a woman. Be xenophobic, medieval, closed-minded and otherwise afraid of change. > [@](#): > > Very simple. Yeah, a little _too_ simple. Or is that what Americans are _really_ like, naturally moronic with a few exceptions? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676/52 "2004-12-29T06:11:57Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Once upon a time I used to be that guy. I grew up. That remains to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676/53 "2004-12-29T13:38:48Z")
> [@kung fu lola](#): > > Lets translate your post, shall we? > I’ll use small words so that you can understand. > Treat them homersexuals like the second-class citizens they deserve to be, the perverts. > Fewer textbooks, less housing and healthcare for the poor. More yachts for Repbulicans! > > More power to the rich, less power to the poor. > > As **Little Nemo** said, more nigger jokes. > > Superiority for Christians. Inferiority for others! (Possibly American flags for all). > Bring the government into the bedrooms of the nation. > Shut off your brain and let Pat Robertson’s opinions become _your_ opinions. > > Be xenophobic, medieval, closed-minded and otherwise afraid of change. > Yeah, a little _too_ simple. Or is that what Americans are _really_ like, naturally moronic with a few exceptions? A LOT of them ARE like that … enough to swing the last election. I mean, what does Bush really stand for, if not these values? But none of them like cowardice, which is why The Chickenhawk War will sting. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676/54 "2004-12-29T15:13:28Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by **rjung** to **Airman Doors USAF** :_ > > That remains to be seen. Thanks a lot for the effective outreach. **rjung** , I know you don’t think of yourself as “spokesman for the left” or anything, but I’d appreciate it if you’d try not to alienate moderate and sensible conservatives. Especially those who _have_ shown the courage of their convictions and _do_ examine their own beliefs. They’re the best type of ally we have against the neocon fantasists, and on the off-chance they can actually help us turn the tide, they’re also the best check against our _own_ extremists. On the subject of the OP… If we’re going to use broad brushes (and those are quite useful sometimes), we shouldn’t make them much broader than our intended target. If “Chickenhawk War” takes hold, how many serviceman-voters caught up in the conflict do you think _won’t_ feel that brush? The responsibility for the war lies squarely on the Chief Executive’s shoulders, and the miserable handling of it on his direct subordinates’ shoulders. Call it “Bush’s War” or “the Neocon Folly”, but don’t apply that chickenhawk label where it doesn’t belong. This war is about a cowardly President floating his famous “political capital” on the blood of patriots. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676/55 "2004-12-29T15:25:01Z")
Concur. It may well be necessary, at some point in time, for a President with no military experience whatsoever to make a gravely important decision and commit American soldiers to war. I can only hope that he does a better job of it than GeeDubya, but he should be free to make that decision on the facts at hand, without reference to his personal combat experience, or lack thereof. It is imperative that such a ghastly decision, when required, be made as entirely free of irrelevent considerations as humanly possible. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676/56 "2004-12-29T16:20:07Z")
Beautiful. Just the point I’ve been making in numerous threads. Glad to see you’re on board, **elucidator**. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676/57 "2004-12-29T16:54:41Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > But none of them like cowardice, which is why The Chickenhawk War will sting. I don’t think it’s that simple. Cowardice? Here’s one of my favourite quotes about cowardice, from Robert Louis Stevenson’s short story, [_ **The Suicide Club** _](http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/s/stevenson/robert_louis/s848na/part1.html): > [@](#): > > “Why, my dear sir, this club is the temple of intoxication"… > > “I have tried them all, sir,” he went on, laying his hand on Geraldine’s arm, “all without exception, and I declare to you, upon my honour, there is not one of them that has not been grossly and untruthfully overrated.” > > “People trifle with love. Now, I deny that love is a strong passion. Fear is the strong passion; it is with fear that you must trifle, if you wish to taste the intensest joys of living.” > > **"Envy me- envy me, sir," he added with a chuckle, "I am a coward!"** ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676/58 "2004-12-29T17:13:04Z")
Contrast that with **Bricker** ’s vision of a USA eerily similar to [The Handmaid’s Tale](http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/lit-med/lit-med-db/webdocs/webdescrips/atwood157-des-.html) and you begin to get a picture of what you’re up against: > [@Bricker](#): > > Being right more often than being wrong. > > Rallying against the perceived snobbery and elitism of the American left. > > When wrong, recasting the debate in simple, rather than complex terms… in other words, when the opposition 's argument is complex and right, making your argument simple and winning the undecided that are too lazy to investigate further. > > When right, recasting the debate in simple, rather than complex terms… in other words, when your position is complex and right, making your argument simple and winning the undecided that are too lazy to appreciate nuance. > > In broad terms, have positions that the public supports in broad terms. (No gay marriage. Tax cuts. Less government interference. Less political correctness. Welcoming religion into the public sphere. Oppose immorality. Be definite about right and wrong. Support traditional American institutions - Boy Scouts, church, marriage between a man and a woman. ) > > Very simple. Fear. Fear of _uncertainty_. Turns even good men simple. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676/59 "2004-12-29T17:22:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > It is imperative that such a ghastly decision, when required, be made as entirely free of irrelevent considerations as humanly possible. It is just as imperative that the decision be made with as close and thoughtful consultation as possible with those who know more closely than he what it entails. It is vitally necessary, especially for one with such power, to be aware of one’s own ignorance. I’m sure you agree that this decision was made without any such consultation. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676/60 "2004-12-29T17:50:22Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It is just as imperative that the decision be made with as close and thoughtful consultation as possible with those who know more closely than he what it entails. It is vitally necessary, especially for one with such power, to be aware of one’s own ignorance. > > I’m sure you agree that this decision was made without any such consultation. So let’s focus instead on that _arrogant ignorance_ which so dangerously pervades this administration. Deriding the “chickenhawks”, even where the label’s accurate for specific officials, obscures the real evil of how this war was decided, packaged and delivered. It’s a weak label which, IMO, actually _diminishes_ the charges of dishonesty, incompetence, corruption and (if we’re really to be honest) imperial hubris. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-name-for-gulf-war-ii-the-chickenhawk-war/281676.md?page=4)