Without a moment’s hesitation. Nevertheless, if the decision is necessary, unavoidable, it shouldn’t make a difference if the decision falls to Barney Fife or to Rambo.
All that’s really necessary is for the leader facing the decision to ask himself, honestly, “Is this a cause I’d be willing to give my own life for?” If the answer isn’t clearly Yes, he has some more thinking to do and more people to discuss it with in more depth before he makes any commitment. That, not incidentally, is a fundamental part of the job of the Congress that Bush wanted to circumvent.
I’m not out to alienate anyone, but neither am I going to sit back and let any passing dipstick think he can take a potshot at me and get away with it, either. Or, to put it in terms Airman Doors can comprehend, “Don’t start none if you don’t want none.”
I started it?!?!
Please allow me to quote what you said that started me off:
That is a blatant lie, and I called you on it. You are slandering a lot of good men and women with that statement, and I’m sick of your blathering bullshit. You have no right to call my fellow servicemen cowards.
And then you retort with more of your cheap rhetoric, knowing full well that I do nothing of the sort anymore, and yet you still try to score points. You can’t do it. Not with me. I have very nearly become what not three years ago I most hated: a damn hippie liberal. At the very minimum I have become a very centrist moderate. Whereas you are an extreme left-wing baiter, using every opportunity to cheapshot people who don’t lick your boots.
Like I said, grow up. Try making up your own mind for a change. It’s amazing what happens when you do.
So, in closing, don’t you dare try to pin this little war on me. You put out the bait with your lying, and to my shame I swallowed it.
Someone give poor Airman Doors a dictionary and show him the difference between “supported by” and “fought by.”
:rolleyes:
Don’t blame me for your reading deficiencies.
(And if you’re going to try to claim that everyone fighting in Iraq is in favor of the war, I’ll pimp-smack you with a copy of Will They Ever Trust Us Again?)
I like it too. Now, picture those old Warner Brothers cartoons. Picture Dubya as the little bitty anklebiting chickenhawk and Karl Rove as Foghorn Leghorn.
Adds a whole new dimension, that does. 
Twweeeeet Neutral corners, you two. You’re yelling so loud, you don’t even realize you don’t disagree that much.
Of course most soldiers in Iraq probably support the war. That’s only human. We talk shit like because they’re there, they must know whats going on. Ask 'Nam vets, they’ll tell you they were just about the very last people to be informed in the “big picture” sense. They don’t have time to worry about being well-informed, they worry about keeping themselves alive and the guy who’s back they’ve got. There’s nothing like the prospect of getting shot to narrow your perspective.
And in a situation like that, you can’t believe you’re on a fool’s errand, you wouldn’t be able to function! Period, full stop, you couldn’t do it! And you have to! Fighting for something is not anywhere near the same thing as supporting it. Ask John Kerry.
What was that old saying about those who know nothing of history…
Franklin Roosevelt made just such a decision. His only “military experience” was as Assistant Secretary of the Navy (and for those who know even less about history, he was not stricken with polio till he was nearly 40 years old).
Perhaps they do while they’re over there, but equally well perhaps not. My nephew, who joined the Navy full of enthusiasm and is a medic attached to a SEAL unit, enlisted as a neocon. After tours in Afghanistan and Iraq (including Falujah) he doesn’t think that way any more, at all, at all. “Anybody but Bush” is the way he puts it now, and if anyone’s got a right to say so, he certainly does.
Fine. You think you’re a better reader than I am. Then read. And open your eyes this time.
So, tell me again what the difference is between “supported by” and “fought by”. That’s right, there is no difference. I’ll be damned. So you either recant your slander or continue to be a mealymouthed little chickenshit weasel. It’s your call.
All you’ve shown is that a majority of the troops support the war. That’s nice, but that wasn’t the context of my original post, as anyone with a basic ability to read in context could conclude. After all, even your own cite demonstrates that not all of the troops support the war; ergo, “support the war” != “troops fighting the war”, no matter how much you wish it did.
Just because you wanted to infer something I didn’t imply doesn’t make me the asshole here – it merely demonstrates your poor reading skills.
“Supported by trice-damned cowards” leaves no wriggle room. 67% support it, and they are there, have been there, or are going there. Cowards? Absolutely not. Only in your mind.
Even the 33% that DON’T support it are still going over there. Are they cowards? Once again, I think not.
No, the only coward here is you, because you’re not man enough to face up to the fact that what you said was unconsionably slanderous, and now you’re trying to weasel your way out of them.
It’s people like you that ensure that Bush and his ilk continue to be in control, and will continue to be for a long time. Wanna know why Kerry didn’t win? It’s not Rove. It’s jackasses like you that piss people off so thoroughly that anyone who is within earshot of your bullshit will cut off their nose to spite their face simply to fuck you over. Calling soldiers cowards? That’s good for another million votes for the Republicans. Absolutely brilliant tactics.
You know, when I voted for Kerry I thought I was doing the right thing. If you are in any way representative of the Democratic Party I think it’s time to reevaluate.
Through all this partisan bickering, I feel obligated to urge all of you to say that out loud.
Partisan, nothing.
This has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with the defamation of my comrades, 1,300+ of which have come home on their shields. I will not let any chickenshit slander artist defame their characters. No way.
You know what? At this point an apology would be insincere at best, given that it would be shamefully coerced. Since I already know that you don’t have the integrity and you have so clearly demonstrated it before everyone who reads this thread, I don’t want you to apologize. Your apology and/or retraction would be completely unworthy of everyone who puts on the uniform every day and gives you the freedom to talk shit on them.
You are not even worthy enough to lick the sand off their boots. You are not worthy to even look at their coffins, the “cowards” who gave their last in the hopes that things would be better for you.
Go to hell, rjung. You make me sick.
Airman Doors, while I totally agree rjung is being an ass - this is an example of why I hesitate to align myself as “liberal” - I do have to say that when I read his (her?) initial post, I took “supporters” to mean noncombatants safe at home on American soil (although even then the insult is specious). So, while I’d take your side here, I do also think part of the problem was in the vague wording of the post (and, rjung, when two people - in this case, Airman Doors and I - reach different conclusions about what is meant, it’s usually the speaker’s fault, not the reader’s).
Grammar hawks - substitute “define” for “align” in the first sentence. I rewrote it halfway through, but neglected to chane that word.
I disagree (but not totally).
Yes, in most cases service does not matter.
But in the case when a President has ‘avoided’ war, it becomes a moral issue when he sends others to die.
What was Cheney’s quote about Vietnam? That he was too busy/had other things to do? Where was Bush during Vietnam? (or while he was supposed to be serving in the guard)
For men like these to beat the war drums is revolting.
“No, I wouldn’t dream of making such a sacrifice for my country, and when the chips were down, I didn’t. Now I’m sending y’all to die.”
I call bull, yet again.
Where was Bill Clinton when his country needed him? We all know the lengths he took to avoid military service when he was a young man.
I can tell you from personal experience he had no trouble committing U.S. troops when he felt this was necessary. I’m joining the VFW, and I’m eligible because of a foreign war fought during his administration.
Paint Bush and Cheney as chickenhawks, and you’ll similarly have to do so for Clinton and even FDR. Intellectual honesty would seem to demand this, FinnAgain.
Yeah, what’s up with FDR not being in the military? Polio, schmolio. Aircraft and tanks are operated from the seated position!