# New Oklahoma Abortion Bill hands over final say to males **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2017, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456 "2017-02-10T12:44:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/181 "2017-02-13T00:06:37Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > None of which is what this thread is about. The law itself assumes abortion is legal; it just takes the decision whether or not to have one away from the pregnant woman. Yes, but the obvious purpose is to make an end run around “Roe” (and possibly to get the case taken to the supreme court). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/182 "2017-02-13T00:26:42Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > A zygote isn’t human because I called it something else. Boom. Magic. A cat isn’t a dog because I called it something else. Boom. Magic. Nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/183 "2017-02-13T01:02:16Z")
Also, of course, the thread has devolved into a general abortion debate, having left the actual point of the OP far behind. Always happens. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/184 "2017-02-13T11:23:40Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Think of it this way, in reality it cannot be his child truly until it exists alive in the world already delivered. Until then, it is a part of her body, no matter how you feel about equality or rights. A fetus is not a oart of a woman’s body. Saying so is contrary to science. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/185 "2017-02-13T11:29:03Z")
Until it is born into the world, it is indeed a part of a woman’s body. That it cannot survive without the woman’s body is the proof. Eggs aren’t chickens, or ducks, or geese, they’re eggs! In language, in supermarkets and in conversation. This much is self evident to an eight year old. Your personal beliefs notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/186 "2017-02-13T11:48:36Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > A zygote isn’t human because I called it something else. Boom. Magic. You are mightily impressed by how language works on a fundamental level, aren’t you? I mean, I am, too, but I hardly call it “magic.” Instead, I recognize that people define words differently; there’s nothing magical about that. The question of whether a fetus is “human” seems to me to be rather missing the point: what does a person mean by “human”? Are my skin cells human skin cells, in the same sense that a fetus is a human fetus? Is it a reference to chromosomal makeup, in which morality is not implicated at all? Or are you using “human” to refer to an autonomous individual of our species, with a human brain? Better, I think, not to worry about “human”–focus instead on words like “moral object.” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/187 "2017-02-13T15:25:22Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > But the point is that if a woman wants to terminate she can, if she wants to keep it she can. The man is expected to fulfill his responsibilities no matter what the woman decides. If a man gets pregnant, well, the shoe will be on the other foot. Child support is a function of the legal rights of the child - whether it’s a boy or a girl. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/188 "2017-02-13T15:43:33Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > A fetus is not a oart of a woman’s body. Saying so is contrary to science. Cite, please? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/189 "2017-02-14T00:21:48Z")
What does it matter, either way, whether or not it is a “part” of a woman’s body? It’s inside her body. At what point does the ham sandwich I’ve eaten become “part of my body?” For some purposes, it has done so the moment I’ve devoured it. That’d be the legal purpose, because you can’t take it away from me without assault and battery. Biochemically, it’s gradual, although some of the starches turn to sugar upon contact with saliva, and are absorbed almost instantly. The fetus is “very closely associated” with the woman’s body. Why get Platonic over definitions of “part?” ETA: is the dead part of my toenail “part of my body?” ---
**Author:** ![Monimonika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@Monimonika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monimonika)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/190 "2017-02-14T13:05:14Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I think abortion should be legal in cases 4), 5) and 6). Self defence is a legitimate reason for the use of force. 3) is a tough case but I would lean towards no there, as well as in the other cases. Thank you for answering. I was curious of your overall position and see that it’s pretty consistent (well, as consistent as can be given the moral grey areas of conflicting rights). I appreciate the struggle you have with “#3 Rape” as you recognize there is a real conflict there and thus are not quick to be either hypocritical (woman/girl’s not a slut \> embryo/fetus’s life) nor totally heartless. Seems like there’s another thread for the morality of abortion, so I will stop derailing here. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/191 "2017-02-14T15:40:52Z")
Back to the subject, Oklahoma House Bill 1441: [This article](https://theintercept.com/2017/02/13/oklahoma-lawmakers-want-men-to-approve-all-abortions/) gives a more detailed insight on what is happening with this bill and the intent of it’s author, Rep. Justin Humphrey, who said > [@](#): > > “I believe one of the breakdowns in our society is that we have excluded the man out of all of these types of decisions,” he said. “I understand that they feel like that is their body,” he said of women. “I feel like it is a separate — what I call them is, is you’re a ‘host.’ And you know when you enter into a relationship you’re going to be that host and so, you know, if you pre-know that then take all precautions and don’t get pregnant,” he explained. “So that’s where I’m at. I’m like, hey, your body is your body and be responsible with it. But after you’re irresponsible then don’t claim, well, I can just go and do this with another body, when you’re the host and you invited that in.” So all the responsibility is on the women…err, I mean “The Host”. ---
**Author:** ![chaika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chaika/32/405_2.png) [@chaika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaika)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/192 "2017-02-14T16:28:25Z")
> [@](#): > > “I believe one of the breakdowns in our society is that we have excluded the man out of all of these types of decisions,” he said. “I understand that they feel like that is their body,” he said of women. “I feel like it is a separate — what I call them is, is you’re a ‘host.’ And you know when you enter into a relationship you’re going to be that host and so, you know, if you pre-know that then take all precautions and don’t get pregnant,” he explained. “So that’s where I’m at. I’m like, hey, your body is your body and be responsible with it. But after you’re irresponsible then don’t claim, well, I can just go and do this with another body, when you’re the host and you invited that in.” I don’t know whether to laugh or weep at this explanation. Yeah, women “feel like that is their body.” Because, you know, it is. And “after you’re irresponsible”? Um, O.K. A man and a woman who choose to engage in intercourse are obviously taking a chance that a pregnancy might result, even if they use the best available birth control. The man, however, is not the one for whom such a pregnancy would present any physical change or risk. I guess if you view a pregnant woman as a mere vessel for carrying a fetus to term, the idea that the man has the final say over decisions surrounding her body/health/life might make some sort of sense. Meanwhile, back in the real world, the proposed legislation in Oklahoma is obviously unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/193 "2017-02-14T16:31:50Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > A fetus is not a oart of a woman’s body. Saying so is contrary to science. Yeah, this quote is wrong on such a fundamental, base level, it’s hard even to address. Whether a fetus is part of a woman’s body is really a trivial question of semantics. Science doesn’t come close to working like that: science is concerned with the signified, not the signifiers. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/194 "2017-02-14T16:34:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Back to the subject, Oklahoma House Bill 1441: [This article](https://theintercept.com/2017/02/13/oklahoma-lawmakers-want-men-to-approve-all-abortions/) gives a more detailed insight on what is happening with this bill and the intent of it’s author, Rep. Justin Humphrey, who said > So all the responsibility is on the women…err, I mean “The Host”. A host, like a host of a party (it’s a party in my uterus, and Rep Humphrey’s not invited!)? Humphrey may never have been to an actual party other than the Republican Party, and the Republican Party doesn’t so much have “hosts” as it has “archdemons” and “supervillains”, so I don’t expect him to know the number one rule of being a host: The host gets to kick people out of the party. If he means a different sort of host, e.g., the sort that has a parasitic infection, he needs to specify. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/195 "2017-02-14T16:35:34Z")
> [@chaika](#): > > I don’t know whether to laugh or weep at this explanation. Yeah, women “feel like that is their body.” Because, you know, it is. And “after you’re irresponsible”? Um, O.K. > > A man and a woman who choose to engage in intercourse are obviously taking a chance that a pregnancy might result, even if they use the best available birth control. The man, however, is not the one for whom such a pregnancy would present any physical change or risk. I guess if you view a pregnant woman as a mere vessel for carrying a fetus to term, the idea that the man has the final say over decisions surrounding her body/health/life might make some sort of sense. Meanwhile, back in the real world, the proposed legislation in Oklahoma is obviously unconstitutional. I guess he sees it as a fifty/fifty split-the women have all the responsibilities, and the men have all the rights. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/196 "2017-02-15T10:25:54Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I don’t think there should be abortion rights. I also don’t think that there should be a right to a kidney transplant or a Stenting. Abortion should be a strictly medical procedure done by a medical practitioner and his/her patient after discussions and the state should not second guess it; except to ensure (as for other medical procedures) that standards of quality, health and safety are maintained. That’s just semantics, then. You’ve defined “right” differently. Because what you describe is how we are defining “abortion rights.” Either you have a right to do something, or the government has the right to stop you. Those are the two options. Also, child support is irrelevant because it is applied to both sexes. With this abortion law, the only possible result is the man being able to tell a woman what she is required to do with her own body. There is no equality between the sexes, which means it is sexist. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/197 "2017-02-15T14:50:42Z")
And if a woman gets artificially inseminated and changes her mind? Seriously, back when abortion was illegal, rape and wife beating were pretty much legal, or at least never prosecuted. Let’s go back to those days. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2017, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/198 "2017-02-20T22:42:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _Brilliant_ idea! The concerned male signs such a thing, committing fraud, and what happens if… > > 1. The abortion request is denied anyway, or > 2. The actual person who impregnated her steps forward to challenge it? > > Congratulations-Now two people are in trouble with the law, and the abortion is denied anyway. I’ll sign the forms. Just FedEx 'em to me and I’ll send 'em back. If some Oklahoma prosecutor wants to come to Canada to subpoena me, let him try. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2017, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/199 "2017-02-21T01:05:44Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > A fetus is not a oart of a woman’s body. Saying so is contrary to science. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Cite, please? As a matter of fact, a fetus isn’t an oart at all! ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2017, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/200 "2017-02-22T04:35:21Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I think abortion should be legal in cases 4), 5) and 6). Self defence is a legitimate reason for the use of force. 3) is a tough case but I would lean towards no there, as well as in the other cases. Where is the money supposed to come from to deal with the toughest scenarios in #7? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456.md?page=9)