# New Oklahoma Abortion Bill hands over final say to males **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2017, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456 "2017-02-10T12:44:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/61 "2017-02-10T22:09:17Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > But anyways, males don’t have final say. They have an equal say. Pray tell, how does that work in real life, when there is no such thing as a “tie” in this situation? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/62 "2017-02-10T22:10:12Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > It doesn’t matter when the baby exists–I elided “exists independently of its mother”. > > My five year old doesn’t have the right to my body now, so I don’t see any argument to why he should have had a right to it when he was a fetus. His personhood is secondary to that. Not if society decides otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/63 "2017-02-10T22:11:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Pray tell, how does that work in real life, when there is no such thing as a “tie” in this situation? It’s simple. He could agree and she could change her mind. Bam! Final say went to the woman. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/64 "2017-02-10T22:12:16Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Not if society decides otherwise. Are you rejecting the concept of “unalienable rights” entirely, as a sort of national fiction, or are you suggesting that bodily autonomy isn’t one? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/65 "2017-02-10T22:17:31Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s simple. He could agree and she could change her mind. Bam! Final say went to the woman. Agree to what-change her mind to what? I’m tired of this dancing around-just tell me outright what you think should happen if the man doesn’t want her to have an abortion, but she still does. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/66 "2017-02-10T22:22:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Agree to what-change her mind to what? > I’m tired of this dancing around-just tell me outright what you think should happen if the man doesn’t want her to have an abortion, but she still does. That isn’t the topic of this thread. Oklahoma law is. So stop moving the goal posts and stop framing the nature of the decision making misleadingly. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/67 "2017-02-10T22:23:33Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Are you rejecting the concept of “unalienable rights” entirely, as a sort of national fiction, or are you suggesting that bodily autonomy isn’t one? Since when have we had full bodily autonomy? And “unalienable rights”? It’s might makes right in this world. The rest is a facade. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/68 "2017-02-10T22:24:19Z")
If he says no and she does it anyways? The only fitting solution. She’s now compelled by law to register for the draft. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/69 "2017-02-10T22:24:43Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That isn’t the topic of this thread. Oklahoma law is. So stop moving the goal posts and stop framing the nature of the decision making misleadingly. Got it. You were willing to discuss it when you could be vague and “cute”, but it’s suddenly off-topic when you are asked for specifics. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/70 "2017-02-10T22:26:55Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > I think that the position that it’s your choice to abort solely becuase you fucked up the decision to not be pregnant in the first place and want the maintain the option to mulligan is a horrible one. Unfortunately, NO birth control option is 100% (short of radical forms of surgical sterilization) A woman who’s birth control failed due to manufacturer’s defect or other factor beyond her control has not “fucked up” her decision not to be pregnant. Why shouldn’t she be allowed to abort when she does not want to be pregnant? I get tired of men playing the victim card - oh, we have to dress women in sacks and keep them locked up because the _men_ can’t control themselves. Oh, we can’t allow the women to abort because of a “whim”\* and subject the poor, poor man to child support against his will - never mind that (absent rape or theft of sperm) HE consented to the exact same sex act. Or even imposed that sex act violently on the woman. No, let’s force _her_ to raise a child she doesn’t want with minimal or no help. :rolleyes: It’s bullshit. - I’ve yet to meet or have reliable documentation on the existence of a woman who gets an abortion _on a whim_ - it’s NOT free, it’s NOT cheap unless you’re already wealthy, and as far as I can tell is done after some thoughtful soul-searching. Honest to god, are there men out there who think this is an uneventful as, say, getting your blood pressure taken or something? Even the morning after pill isn’t fun to take and can be downright miserable, much less anything more involved than that. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/71 "2017-02-10T22:33:21Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Unfortunately, NO birth control option is 100% (short of radical forms of surgical sterilization) > > A woman who’s birth control failed due to manufacturer’s defect or other factor beyond her control has not “fucked up” her decision not to be pregnant. Why shouldn’t she be allowed to abort when she does not want to be pregnant? > > I get tired of men playing the victim card - oh, we have to dress women in sacks and keep them locked up because the _men_ can’t control themselves. Oh, we can’t allow the women to abort because of a “whim”\* and subject the poor, poor man to child support against his will - never mind that (absent rape or theft of sperm) HE consented to the exact same sex act. Or even imposed that sex act violently on the woman. No, let’s force _her_ to raise a child she doesn’t want with minimal or no help. > > :rolleyes: > > It’s bullshit. > > - I’ve yet to meet or have reliable documentation on the existence of a woman who gets an abortion _on a whim_ - it’s NOT free, it’s NOT cheap unless you’re already wealthy, and as far as I can tell is done after some thoughtful soul-searching. Honest to god, are there men out there who think this is an uneventful as, say, getting your blood pressure taken or something? Even the morning after pill isn’t fun to take and can be downright miserable, much less anything more involved than that. There’s still one very reliable pregnancy prevention method yoy didn’t mention. How babies are made isn’t a secret, the choice is still there I qualified my position to exclude rape babies and medical necessity previously. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/72 "2017-02-10T22:34:34Z")
Lets talk about the uncomfortable instances too. What if the father is an abusive ex-boyfriend who just wants to punish the mom by not letting her get the abortion? “What about the child support he’ll have to pay?” - you say. Like he’ll give a shit about that. But, eh, what’s one more unfed mouth, right? What if the mom doesn’t want anyone else in the world to know who the father is? As would be her right too, I might remind. Tough shit? Spill or gestate, honey. What if the mom just can’t remember who the father is? Should she have to carry the baby to term because she such a goddamned slut? Shit like this happens. People like this, however one might judge them, would be affected intensely for the sake of other people’s moral superiority. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/73 "2017-02-10T22:35:07Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And you don’t think in a state that legalized mandatory father consent wouldn’t peruse fraud or perjury charges? C’mon iiandyiiii! They would probably try… but such an incredibly unjust law should be resisted, and if tens of thousands of men in Oklahoma volunteer in this way, it will be awfully hard to prove that each one didn’t have sex with a woman when they both say they did. > [@](#): > > But anyways, males don’t have final say. They have an equal say. No one should have any say in what’s going on with someone else’s body without their consent. ---
**Author:** ![purplehearingaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@purplehearingaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehearingaid)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/74 "2017-02-10T22:38:28Z")
> [@CatandMouse](#): > > I really wish men could get pregnant. Me too ! ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/75 "2017-02-10T22:39:05Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > There’s still one very reliable pregnancy prevention method yoy didn’t mention. How babies are made isn’t a secret, the choice is still there > > I qualified my position to exclude rape babies and medical necessity previously. So basically, “Don’t have sex at all”, is the only truly responsible choice a woman can make. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/76 "2017-02-10T22:41:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > They would probably try… but such an incredibly unjust law should be resisted, and if tens of thousands of men in Oklahoma volunteer in this way, it will be awfully hard to prove that each one didn’t have sex with a woman when they both say they did. > > No one should have any say in what’s going on with someone else’s body without their consent. What makes it unjust? And should we all act illegally, as you propose, when laws or regulations are passed that we disagree with? Your last sentence almost makes you a libertarian. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/77 "2017-02-10T22:43:25Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > So basically, “Don’t have sex at all”, is the only truly responsible choice a woman can make. :rolleyes: No. It’s just the most reliable birth control method to ever exist. Everything else are choice based risks of varying degrees. The same choice based risks men take. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/78 "2017-02-10T22:45:18Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > What makes it unjust? It’s taking away the right of bodily autonomy for women. Every adult of sound mind should have the right to complete, 100% control of who and what gets to enter, and remain, inside their body. > [@](#): > > And should we all act illegally, as you propose, when laws or regulations are passed that we disagree with? We already do, if it’s bad enough – and we all already agree on this. Monstrously unjust laws that (IMO) morally require disobedience and even resistance are replete in American history. It was immoral to not disobey laws that required turning in escaped slaves. This is just another one such law (which seems very unlikely to pass/survive judicial review). > [@](#): > > Your last sentence almost makes you a libertarian. With regards to bodily autonomy, I might be a libertarian. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/79 "2017-02-10T22:48:57Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > So basically, “Don’t have sex at all”, is the only truly responsible choice a woman can make. :rolleyes: In all fairness, “Don’t have sex at all,” is the only truly responsible choice offered to a man who does not want to be a parent. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/80 "2017-02-10T22:51:24Z")
Humans (most of them/us, anyway) are sexual beings. It’s neither healthy nor reasonable to expect or demand that healthy human adults refrain from sexual activity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456.md?page=5)