# New Oklahoma Abortion Bill hands over final say to males **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2017, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456 "2017-02-10T12:44:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/81 "2017-02-10T22:53:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There would be slight risk (which I think would be worth it on principle), but I think you’re being incredibly hyperbolic – such fraud would be very, very difficult to prove, even if the actual father came forward. > > **John Mace** suggests the legislature would try to counter, which is very possible, but so what? Does that mean that (in the off chance this bill becomes law) progressives shouldn’t try to bypass it? I’m not suggesting that my solution is fool proof – merely that it’s a place to start resisting such immoral legislation. It’s a dumb starting place–ignoring the problems of challenges by the real father, there’s also the fact that those men who volunteer for this silly plan will suddenly be liable for child-support, etc if the woman then changes her mind. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/82 "2017-02-10T22:54:29Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > It’s a dumb starting place–ignoring the problems of challenges by the real father, there’s also the fact that those men who volunteer for this silly plan will suddenly be liable for child-support, etc if the woman then changes her mind. It’s a bit of a risk, but IMO decent men should be willing to risk a little to support and aid women whose rights are being violated by the law. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/83 "2017-02-10T23:21:11Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > There’s still one very reliable pregnancy prevention method yoy didn’t mention. How babies are made isn’t a secret, the choice is still there > > I qualified my position to exclude rape babies and medical necessity previously. If a woman wants absolutely 100% to never be pregnant then shouldn’t have sex with a man, is that what you’re saying? OK - if a man 100% never wants to be on the hook for child support then he shouldn’t have sex with a woman. If a man does have sex with a woman he should accept that there is a non-zero (though preferably very, very small) risk that he will wind up being financially responsible for another human being for 18 years. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/84 "2017-02-10T23:28:03Z")
So I’m pretty liberal, but what exactly is wrong with this bill? The idea that a father has a say in whether his child is aborted doesn’t sound that irrational to me. If the law said a child couldn’t be aborted if the biological father didn’t want it aborted (it could only be aborted if both parents want an abortion, assuming both parents want responsibility for the child), that doesn’t sound bad. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/85 "2017-02-10T23:32:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > They would probably try… but such an incredibly unjust law should be resisted, and if tens of thousands of men in Oklahoma volunteer in this way, it will be awfully hard to prove that each one didn’t have sex with a woman when they both say they did. …as stupid as this proposed law is: with all due respect what you propose is incredibly dangerous. We’ve just watched in real time what happens when someone says one thing (we want to ban Muslims!) and then claims another (it wasn’t a Muslim ban!) in court. You are asking people to lie under oath. In cases where the real father is on the other side of the bench. How well are these “thousands of men” going to hold up under scrutiny from aggressive interrogation? As their personal lives, their relationships with their real life wives and girlfriends, are torn to shreds? Worry about stopping this bill from passing first. And if it does pass: then battle to repeal it. But your suggestion won’t do anyone any good at all. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/86 "2017-02-10T23:39:07Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …as stupid as this proposed law is: with all due respect what you propose is incredibly dangerous. We’ve just watched in real time what happens when someone says one thing (we want to ban Muslims!) and then claims another (it wasn’t a Muslim ban!) in court. You are asking people to lie under oath. In cases where the real father is on the other side of the bench. How well are these “thousands of men” going to hold up under scrutiny from aggressive interrogation? As their personal lives, their relationships with their real life wives and girlfriends, are torn to shreds? > > Worry about stopping this bill from passing first. And if it does pass: then battle to repeal it. But your suggestion won’t do anyone any good at all. I’m all for fighting the bill. There might be better ideas on how to support women’s rights if the fight against the bill fails, and my idea is obviously far from foolproof. But that this form of resistance might risk harming some men doesn’t necessarily make it a bad idea. Decent people should be willing to risk at least a little in order to fight injustice. ---
**Author:** ![chaika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chaika/32/405_2.png) [@chaika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaika)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/87 "2017-02-10T23:42:23Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > So I’m pretty liberal, but what exactly is wrong with this bill? The idea that a father has a say in whether his child is aborted doesn’t sound that irrational to me. > > If the law said a child couldn’t be aborted if the biological father didn’t want it aborted (it could only be aborted if both parents want an abortion, assuming both parents want responsibility for the child), that doesn’t sound bad. It doesn’t sound bad to you that a man would have the right to force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term? Really? It sounds horrendous to me (for all the reasons that previous posters have articulated). ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/88 "2017-02-11T00:19:17Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If a woman wants absolutely 100% to never be pregnant then shouldn’t have sex with a man, is that what you’re saying? > > OK - if a man 100% never wants to be on the hook for child support then he shouldn’t have sex with a woman. If a man does have sex with a woman he should accept that there is a non-zero (though preferably very, very small) risk that he will wind up being financially responsible for another human being for 18 years. Yes it is. I strongly agree. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/89 "2017-02-11T00:41:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m all for fighting the bill. There might be better ideas on how to support women’s rights if the fight against the bill fails, and my idea is obviously far from foolproof. But that this form of resistance might risk harming some men doesn’t necessarily make it a bad idea. Decent people should be willing to risk at least a little in order to fight injustice. …are you going to be the first to volunteer your services? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/90 "2017-02-11T00:53:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s taking away the right of bodily autonomy for women. Every adult of sound mind should have the right to complete, 100% control of who and what gets to enter, and remain, inside their body. > > We already do, if it’s bad enough – and we all already agree on this. Monstrously unjust laws that (IMO) morally require disobedience and even resistance are replete in American history. It was immoral to not disobey laws that required turning in escaped slaves. This is just another one such law (which seems very unlikely to pass/survive judicial review). > > With regards to bodily autonomy, I might be a libertarian. Can the state compel you to work for it? You pay taxes right? How’s that for bodily autonomy? At some point for society to work we need to concede that society can make demands upon one’s body. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/91 "2017-02-11T00:56:58Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …are you going to be the first to volunteer your services? If I lived in Oklahoma, sure. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/92 "2017-02-11T00:58:47Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Can the state compel you to work for it? You pay taxes right? How’s that for bodily autonomy? At some point for society to work we need to concede that society can make demands upon one’s body. These are not demands on one’s bodily autonomy (which is not to say that they can’t be discussed). ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/93 "2017-02-11T00:59:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s neither healthy nor reasonable to expect or demand that healthy human adults refrain from sexual activity. The suggestion was to refrain from PIV, not all sexual activity. Abortion arguments aside, the idea that Western society should focus way less on penetrative sex is usually a progressive feminist point. Men love PIV, but a lot of women can’t orgasm from it, plus there’s a lot of weird cultural baggage around it (virginal purity, “loose women,” male entitlement, and so on). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/94 "2017-02-11T01:02:00Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > The suggestion was to refrain from PIV, not all sexual activity. Abortion arguments aside, the idea that Western society should focus way less on penetrative sex is usually a progressive feminist point. Men love PIV, but a lot of women can’t orgasm from it, plus there’s a lot of weird cultural baggage around it (virginal purity, “loose women,” male entitlement, and so on). Sounds reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/95 "2017-02-11T01:06:01Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Since when have we had full bodily autonomy? And “unalienable rights”? It’s might makes right in this world. The rest is a facade. Well, there you have it, folks: The mask is off. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/96 "2017-02-11T01:19:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If I lived in Oklahoma, sure. …you are encouraging other people to break the law. You should have the courage of your convictions. Where you live shouldn’t be an excuse. You don’t have to live in Oklahoma to declare you are the father. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/97 "2017-02-11T01:30:29Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And should we all act illegally, as you propose, when laws or regulations are passed that we disagree with? Hell yes, we should. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/98 "2017-02-11T01:33:34Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …you are encouraging other people to break the law. You should have the courage of your convictions. Where you live shouldn’t be an excuse. You don’t have to live in Oklahoma to declare you are the father. Okay, sure. I’ll gladly do it. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/99 "2017-02-11T01:48:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay, sure. I’ll gladly do it. …and now we have it on record that you are willing to lie to the courts about being the father of a baby for the express purpose of “obstructing the rights” of the real father. Do you have a partner? Did you consult with them before making this decision? Are they willing to live with the consequences of everybody thinking that you had an affair? What about your friends and family? Are you going to ask them to lie on your behalf? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/100 "2017-02-11T02:01:19Z")
I’ve said many times that there are at least six sides to the abortion issue, not two, and that I get tired of the pro-life side being portrayed as anti-choice. But this? This is plain and simple the anti-choice side. I wonder if they even care that they’re making the pro-lifers look bad by association. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456.md?page=6)