# New Oklahoma Abortion Bill hands over final say to males **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2017, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456 "2017-02-10T12:44:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/101 "2017-02-11T02:03:57Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …and now we have it on record that you are willing to lie to the courts about being the father of a baby for the express purpose of “obstructing the rights” of the real father. > > Do you have a partner? Did you consult with them before making this decision? Are they willing to live with the consequences of everybody thinking that you had an affair? What about your friends and family? Are you going to ask them to lie on your behalf? My wife agrees with me on this. As for everything and everyone else, I’d cross that bridge if I came to it. Doing the right thing and helping others sometimes entails risk. This is a tiny risk, though, so I’m not patting myself on the back. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/102 "2017-02-11T02:08:50Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …and now we have it on record that you are willing to lie to the courts about being the father of a baby for the express purpose of “obstructing the rights” of the real father. . . . I’m also willing to lie to the Gestapo about whether there are Jews taking refuge in the basement. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/103 "2017-02-11T02:18:51Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’m also willing to lie to the Gestapo about whether there are Jews taking refuge in the basement. …I would be willing to lie to the Gestapo as well. But this is utterly irrelevant. Are you going to be joining iiandyiii and declaring that you will lie to the courts? Do you intend to be number two? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/104 "2017-02-11T02:20:46Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Well, there you have it, folks: The mask is off. There you have what, exactly? And are you really that naive with regards to fundamental moral axioms and reality? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/105 "2017-02-11T02:21:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > These are not demands on one’s bodily autonomy (which is not to say that they can’t be discussed). Actually they are. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/106 "2017-02-11T02:24:47Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I would be willing to lie to the Gestapo as well. But this is utterly irrelevant. > > Are you going to be joining iiandyiii and declaring that you will lie to the courts? Do you intend to be number two? Of course, this is all just part of an amusing conversation. In truth, I would never lie to any official. By coincidence, I do happen to travel by car or cash-paid bus ticket to Oklahoma regularly. And I hate condoms. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/107 "2017-02-11T02:26:13Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Actually they are. No they’re not. No one is entering or remaining in someone’s body without their continual consent in your examples. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/108 "2017-02-11T02:27:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > My wife agrees with me on this. As for everything and everyone else, I’d cross that bridge if I came to it. …if the law is enacted it is a bridge that you will have to face, and I’ll be the first to remind you of it. > [@](#): > > Doing the right thing and helping others sometimes entails risk. This is a tiny risk, though, so I’m not patting myself on the back. But it isn’t a tiny risk. Its a huge risk. Because it is doomed to failure. Do you really think that your lie would stand up to even the tiniest bit of scrutiny? Your wife will have to lie. They will pour over your social media. They will check your travel records. DNA tests. And you’ve admitted you intend to lie about this in court here. There are more effective ways to fight and defeat this than with silly stunts that are doomed to fail and make things worse. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/109 "2017-02-11T02:30:34Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …if the law is enacted it is a bridge that you will have to face, and I’ll be the first to remind you of it. > > But it isn’t a tiny risk. Its a huge risk. Because it is doomed to failure. Do you really think that your lie would stand up to even the tiniest bit of scrutiny? Your wife will have to lie. They will pour over your social media. They will check your travel records. DNA tests. And you’ve admitted you intend to lie about this in court here. > > There are more effective ways to fight and defeat this than with silly stunts that are doomed to fail and make things worse. You’re right. I retract everything I’ve said and totally agree with you, and next time I travel to Oklahoma (without condoms) I’ll be sure to keep this in mind. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/110 "2017-02-11T02:31:02Z")
> [@chaika](#): > > It doesn’t sound bad to you that a man would have the right to force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term? Really? It sounds horrendous to me (for all the reasons that previous posters have articulated). Women aren’t going to be forced to carry pregnancies to term, they’re going to be forced to have back alley “miscarriages,” and some of them are going to die. Are women also going to need permission for Plan-B? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/111 "2017-02-11T02:31:53Z")
The hyperbole is amusing, though, as if every doctor who gets a permission slip is going to spend thousands of dollars digging on the off chance that their patient is lying. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/112 "2017-02-11T02:34:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Of course, this is all just part of an amusing conversation. In truth, I would never lie to any official. By coincidence, I do happen to travel by car or cash-paid bus ticket to Oklahoma regularly. And I hate condoms. You’ve already admitted you’d lie under oath. You have no credibility. At least on this subject. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No they’re not. No one is entering or remaining in someone’s body without their continual consent in your examples. Goal post moving. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/113 "2017-02-11T02:35:34Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > It’s a dumb starting place–ignoring the problems of challenges by the real father, there’s also the fact that those men who volunteer for this silly plan will suddenly be liable for child-support, etc if the woman then changes her mind. If she changes her mind, a paternity test would clear that right up. I would think that any affidavit would be an indicator of possible paternity, not an admission of definite paternity. Unless the subsequent laws were structured in such a way that signing the consent form constituted an ironclad agreement to assume financial responsibility in the case of a full term baby. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/114 "2017-02-11T02:36:51Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You’ve already admitted you’d lie under oath. You have no credibility. At least on this subject. > > Goal post moving. Ah, but this is all part of my plan to get out of paying child support for the multiple women in Oklahoma that I impregnated. As for bodily autonomy, that’s always been control over what enters or remains in one’s body. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/115 "2017-02-11T02:41:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ah, but this is all part of my plan to get out of paying child support for the multiple women in Oklahoma that I impregnated. > > As for bodily autonomy, that’s always been control over what enters our remains in one’s body. Again you’ve admitted you are either a perjurer or an adulterer. Either way no integrity. Good thing you’re a former naval officer. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/116 "2017-02-11T02:44:08Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Actually they are. Are you saying that being subject to taxation is a loss of bodily autonomy? It’s not. Not even remotely. You aren’t “forced to work,” bodily or not. You have options. Go off the grid, have no income, go to a barter system. Even if you choose to work, and thus pay taxes, it’s still not forced loss of bodily autonomy. You can choose to work in an intellectual capacity, and taking your money (in the form of taxes) isn’t any kind of bodily invasion. No one is forcing you to do anything physically. I hope I have simply skimmed too quickly and missed some nuance of your argument. If I have, please correct me. If your argument is that taxation (with representation) is a loss of bodily autonomy-- well, I am at a loss as to how even remotely makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/117 "2017-02-11T02:44:20Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Again you’ve admitted you are either a perjurer or an adulterer. Either way no integrity. Good thing you’re a former naval officer. Better either of those than someone who didn’t take minor action to protect women from oppression. Lying is sometimes the only just option. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/118 "2017-02-11T02:46:39Z")
My flight (to Oklahoma? I’ll never tell 😉 ) is about to take off, so I’ll have to turn off my phone in a minute, in case I disappear. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/119 "2017-02-11T03:00:10Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I would be willing to lie to the Gestapo as well. But this is utterly irrelevant. . . . Perhaps a better analogy is helping escaped slaves get to Canada. It violates the law, but is morally defensible. The state of Oklahoma is trying to make body-slaves of pregnant women. Helping them find freedom is admirable, not reprehensible. As noted, it’s moot anyway, as the law cannot pass constitutional muster. But it does raise the valid point: at what point does civil disobedience become morally permissible? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/120 "2017-02-11T03:06:48Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Perhaps a better analogy is helping escaped slaves get to Canada. It violates the law, but is morally defensible. The state of Oklahoma is trying to make body-slaves of pregnant women. Helping them find freedom is admirable, not reprehensible. > > As noted, it’s moot anyway, as the law cannot pass constitutional muster. > > But it does raise the valid point: at what point does civil disobedience become morally permissible? Depends on your morals or lack thereof. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456.md?page=7)