# New Oklahoma Abortion Bill hands over final say to males **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2017, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456 "2017-02-10T12:44:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/141 "2017-02-11T12:53:28Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > And willing to pay child support when she changes her mind. This is a slight risk, which can be rather easily challenged with DNA. The idea that any significant number of doctors who perform abortions will particularly care who signs a permission slip, and why they sign it, strikes me as rather silly. By definition, doctors who perform elective abortions are pro choice, and thus unlikely to be interested in following such an anti choice law in anything more Thanh the most perfunctory manner. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/142 "2017-02-11T13:07:52Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > And willing to pay child support when she changes her mind. The permission slip means, “sure, maybe it was me.” The child support depends on a paternity test. Life is risky. For something like this, the risk is trivial. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/143 "2017-02-11T13:12:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The permission slip means, “sure, maybe it was me.” > > The child support depends on a paternity test. > > Life is risky. For something like this, the risk is trivial. Not necessarily. Certain jurisdictions, such as under the UCMJ for the military, have you on the hook once you agree that you are the father even if a paternity test shows otherwise later. Mind you, that was the situation about two decades ago, but the point is that the law can be a harsh mistress. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/144 "2017-02-11T13:17:49Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Not necessarily. Certain jurisdictions, such as under the UCMJ for the military, have you on the hook once you agree that you are the father even if a paternity test shows otherwise later. Mind you, that was the situation about two decades ago, but the point is that the law can be a harsh mistress. That’s why I’ll never take the law as my mistress. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/145 "2017-02-11T13:18:03Z")
Civil disobedience like this example isn’t just for that moment and that instance. If dozens and hundreds of men and women are arrested and imprisoned for going around this unjust law (especially with sympathetic circumstances, like rape and incest, that a women might be unwilling to report to the law), that will send a message of its own that helps change hearts and minds against this bill. Just like being arrested during the civil rights movement sometimes helped the movement. If it were to pass and survive legal challenges, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/146 "2017-02-11T13:18:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is a slight risk, which can be rather easily challenged with DNA. According to [The DNA Diagnostics Center](https://dnacenter.com/blog/long-take-get-dna-paternity-test-results/) You might run into a problem with how long the test would take: > [@](#): > > If you decide to go through a child support office in your county, you must meet specific criteria for a court ordered DNA test. The time the process takes has come down significantly over the years, but there are still forms to be processed, a court order to be sent down from a judge, coordinating the DNA collection, and more paperwork before results can be released. There is no “RUSH” option during these adoption procedures, so there may be a lengthy wait ahead. Once everything has gone through, the results will become public record, and court admissible. > > ``` > Longest wait: 4-6 weeks and longer, from county Child Support office—if you qualify. > Shortest wait: 1-2 days, from private lab—but call first! > > ``` If this law causes more people to use DNA testing the waiting list will of course become longer, and I can see lawyers contesting the use of quicker private labs in an attempt to stall the process. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/147 "2017-02-11T16:59:49Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > In a world of absolute bodily autonomy how can one justify conscription, imprisonment, executions, drug prohibition, anti prostitution laws, etc? A great many of us are opposed to anti-prostitution laws for pretty much the same reason. A great many of us are opposed to military conscription, too. Meanwhile, the other items you list are punishments for crimes. Being pregnant is not a crime. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/148 "2017-02-11T20:00:48Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > A man can be forced to pay child support for a child he doesn’t want. What is the difference? A child, male or female, is a human being with all the rights afforded a citizen, and is entitled to support from BOTH their parents, by law. A fetus is not legally a person and is entitled to nothing. That’s the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/149 "2017-02-11T20:15:30Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > In a world of absolute bodily autonomy how can one justify conscription, imprisonment, executions, drug prohibition, anti prostitution laws, etc? Society is an exercise in drawing lines for what you can and cannot do. Those lines include compulsion to do things. For instance if you have a child you are legally obligated to care for that child and society will compel that care if it has to (e.g. garnish your wages for child support payments). Nothing new there. The question then becomes how far society should take it. Where are the lines drawn between what society wants you to do and what you want to do? There is no particular reason abortion can’t be outlawed. If society deems it should be then it is. In the end it is a philosophical and ethical discussion about how society should function. There will always be disagreements about where to draw the lines. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/150 "2017-02-12T05:04:26Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > So, when does the “baby” begin to “exist”? > Your post and frankly the OP’s stupid description of an even stupider law, but most of all that legislature’s obvious intent to reduce abortions display why exactly trying to make abortion a social issue is a very bad idea. Because (gasp) reasonable people can have different views on it then, without getting into the r_eductio ad absurdum_ you see otherwise. > > I don’t think there should be abortion rights. I also don’t think that there should be a right to a kidney transplant or a Stenting. Abortion should be a strictly medical procedure done by a medical practitioner and his/her patient after discussions and the state should not second guess it; except to ensure (as for other medical procedures) that standards of quality, health and safety are maintained. That seems logical to you because, I assume, you don’t think the embryo or fetus is a person with its own interests, deserving of protection. I don’t agree with you about the status of the unborn child so I also don’t think it makes sense to “leave it up to the patient” when the lie of a third person is at stake. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/151 "2017-02-12T06:12:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No it’s not, though I’m open to being convinced otherwise. A substance is different than a procedure. The common element is that they would both be illegal. That’s all that matters for the analogy to work. Abortion provider is to abortion as drug supplier is to drug. One obtains ones drugs from a drug supplier in the same why one obtains an abortion from an abortion provider. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/152 "2017-02-12T08:31:28Z")
[quote=“Trinopus, post:119, topic:779456”] . Helping them find freedom is admirable, not reprehensible.QUOTE] Um, why? From my perspective, the morally admirable thing to do would be to inform on women you think are planning to have illegal abortions, not to help them commit a crime. If you think helping someone kill their (unborn) child is “morally admirable”, you clearly have a very different view of morality than I do. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/153 "2017-02-12T13:17:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The common element is that they would both be illegal. That’s all that matters for the analogy to work. > > Abortion provider is to abortion as drug supplier is to drug. One obtains ones drugs from a drug supplier in the same why one obtains an abortion from an abortion provider. One is about ensuring the right to evict an unwanted presence inside one’s body, which requires the aid of a doctor. The other is about the right to put something in one’s body, which doesn’t require such aid. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/154 "2017-02-12T13:31:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > One is about ensuring the right to evict an unwanted presence inside one’s body, which requires the aid of a doctor. The other is about the right to put something in one’s body, which doesn’t require such aid. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Every adult of sound mind should have the right to complete, 100% control of who and what gets to enter, and remain, inside their body. Emphasis added. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/155 "2017-02-12T13:42:15Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > That seems logical to you because, I assume, you don’t think the embryo or fetus is a person with its own interests, deserving of protection. I don’t agree with you about the status of the unborn child so I also don’t think it makes sense to “leave it up to the patient” when the lie of a third person is at stake. You are entitled to your perspective. But its as unviable as most of the extreme prpo-“choice” arguments. Outside of pregnancy doctors routinely make decisions which are adverse to the interests of individual patients but in the best interests overall, with nary an eyebrow raised. In Triage medical professionals decide who, when and how to treat; often leaving patients in distress or withholding treatment, to ensure as many as possible get best care. Tumor Board might decide against treating an elderly patient v a young one. Transplant lists decide, basically who gets an organ and who does not. You think those are wrong too, since a third (and a fourth, fifth, sixth…) person’s life is at stake? As far as pregnancy is concerned, there is a line where the interests of the unborn outweigh those of the mother. Where that begins, well hard to say. Its clear at the beginning of a pregnancy to be weighed in favor of the mother and at the end towards the unborn; but elsewhere, its a judgement call ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/156 "2017-02-12T13:45:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Emphasis added. Putting drugs in one’s body doesn’t necessarily require aid. Further, my “control” quote was about making sure nothing goes in that’s not wanted, rather than ensuring that everything wanted goes in. In any case, maybe I’m wrong on drugs, in relation to this issue. I’ve put a lot less thought into it than abortion. I’m as confident as a person can be about my position on abortion. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/157 "2017-02-12T14:15:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Putting drugs in one’s body doesn’t necessarily require aid. Further, my “control” quote was about making sure nothing goes in that’s not wanted, rather than ensuring that everything wanted goes in. > > In any case, maybe I’m wrong on drugs, in relation to this issue. I’ve put a lot less thought into it than abortion. I’m as confident as a person can be about my position on abortion. OK. That’s different from what you originally said, but at least now your objection makes some sense. On abortion, are you OK with elective abortion at any time during pregnancy? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/158 "2017-02-12T14:43:54Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > If you think helping someone kill their (unborn) child is “morally admirable”, you clearly have a very different view of morality than I do. For myself, the primary difference is that I have a very different view of a fetus than you have. A fetus prior to about twenty weeks is as sentient as any other bit of human tissue–skin cells, blood vessels, sperm, bone marrow. The shape of it, or its potential, confers no moral weight to it: moral weight lies in differentiated sentience (this algorithm subject to scrutiny once replicable AI programs come around). Add to that the question of whether people are obligated to help others. This is an area where I disagree with lots of abortion rights folks: I do think there are times where you’re morally obligated to use your body to help a specific person, so I’m not a body-autonomy absolutist. However, folks who are, have a significant disagreement with you along these axes. If you propose things differently–if you ignore these two differences, and think we’re saying that it’s morally admirable to assist in infanticide–you’re just wrong about what the difference is. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/159 "2017-02-12T15:48:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK. That’s different from what you originally said, but at least now your objection makes some sense. I don’t see how it’s different, but whatever. > [@](#): > > On abortion, are you OK with elective abortion at any time during pregnancy? Yes. I’ll note that my position, philosophically, is only about the right to end one’s pregnancy. Depending on medical technology and the time into a pregnancy, this may or may not require the death of the fetus. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/160 "2017-02-12T16:02:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes. I’ll note that my position, philosophically, is only about the right to end one’s pregnancy. Depending on medical technology and the time into a pregnancy, this may or may not require the death of the fetus. Is that to say that a woman requesting an abortion at, say, 6 months into her pregnancy would be required to induce labor so that the fetus would not be killed? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456.md?page=9)