# New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin: Hero or Goat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 6, 2005, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342 "2005-09-06T14:30:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/21 "2005-09-06T15:42:04Z")
How long has Nagin been in office? I saw him and the former mayor of New Orleans almost get into a fistfight on TV the other day about “what should have been done.” Did Nagin have time to implement a plan? And—knowing what I do about the famous crookedness of New Orleans politics—has he been a good mayor otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/22 "2005-09-06T15:48:32Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > How long has Nagin been in office? I saw him and the former mayor of New Orleans almost get into a fistfight on TV the other day about “what should have been done.” Did Nagin have time to implement a plan? And—knowing what I do about the famous crookedness of New Orleans politics—has he been a good mayor otherwise? He’s been in office three years. [Here’s a reasonably evenhanded Slate article](http://slate.msn.com/id/2125587/): > [@](#): > > This is the story of Nagin’s term: ambitious plans derailed by the dismal reality of his often-ungovernable city. In the days prior to Hurricane Katrina’s landfall, the 49-year-old mayor ordered New Orleans’ first-ever mandatory evacuation. He told those in the most flood-prone areas to leave early, and he set up shuttles to get the 100,000 or so residents without cars to shelters. He announced that the potentially catastrophic hurricane represented “an opportunity for us to come together in a way we’ve never done before.” Instead, Katrina’s aftermath turned into a typical—if unimaginably and hellaciously tragic—scene from New Orleans politics, with the requisite allegations that the rudderless, incompetent city government can’t deal with the city’s intrinsic geographic, economic, and racial problems. > > Nagin swept into office in 2002 as a businessman and political outsider who promised to reform New Orleans government’s notorious corruption and opacity. A graduate of the New Orleans public school system and the son of a sometime City Hall custodian, Nagin rose to become a top executive at Cox Communications. Before his 2002 mayoral run, Nagin’s greatest local claim to fame was as the co-host of a long-running television show in which Cox’s cable subscribers called in to gripe about the channel lineup. > > Just as he talked down angry cable customers with his smooth baritone, Nagin charmed New Orleans voters with his plain-spokenness and wit. During one mayoral debate, he suggested that one way to solve the city’s budget woes would be to divest Louis Armstrong International Airport—or, as he put it, “Man, I think we need to sell that sucker.” (He also won over voters with his physical charms. Times-Picayune columnist Chris Rose reported that Rose’s female acquaintances called the chrome-domed mayor a “hottie” and “the beautiful man.”) > > Nagin, the reformer, defeated the law-and-order candidate, former New Orleans Police Chief Richard Pennington. He quickly got to the reforming. Two months after he took office, 84 warrants were issued in an attempt to snuff out bribes in the city’s taxicab licensing and vehicle inspection systems. Among the arrested taxi drivers was the mayor’s cousin. Nagin’s clean sweep got glowing mentions in the national press, and the Times-Picayune called it “the biggest crackdown on municipal corruption in the modern history of the city.” His approval rating shot up to 80 percent. > > The newsmaking purges soon tailed off, though, and the already completed corruption-snuffing started to look a lot less impressive. The bribery investigation netted mostly small fish, what the Los Angeles Times described as “a motley collection of cabbies, vehicle inspection agents and low-level bureaucrats.” The district attorney declined to prosecute 53 cabbies due to lack of evidence. The highest-ranking official arrested, the city’s utilities director, got off when a judge ruled that her crimes were on the level of waiving a taxi-registration fee for an amputee. Lots more that may be of interest to you in that article. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/23 "2005-09-06T15:48:35Z")
Nagin had a much worse problem than Rudy did, namely, the post disaster rescue needed. In 9/11 the people in the towers either got out or got killed. People in the rest of NYC were physically safe. If the people got out of the towers they were safe and could go home to their still safe houses. If they didn’t get out of the towers they were already dead. There weren’t a lot of survivors that needed emergency medical care. In New Orleans, the survivors couldn’t just go home and they needed a huge amount of care. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/24 "2005-09-06T15:52:18Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > He’s been in office three years. [Here’s a reasonably evenhanded Slate article](http://slate.msn.com/id/2125587/). Interesting—thanks! He seems like a naive, well-meaning reformer who’s in over his head. (And I’m glad I’m not alone in thinking he’s kinda hot!) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/25 "2005-09-06T15:53:41Z")
Giuliani may be “America’s Mayor” now, but prior to 9-11 he was regarded as a paranoid control freak. But as fate would have it, there was a major crisis in New York City and a paranoid control freak was the right man in the right place. > [@](#): > > How long has Nagin been in office? I saw him and the former mayor of New Orleans almost get into a fistfight on TV the other day about “what should have been done.” Did Nagin have time to implement a plan? And—knowing what I do about the famous crookedness of New Orleans politics—has he been a good mayor otherwise? Nagin was elected in May 2002 in a mayoral race with several candidates (Nagin, who received the highest total, got only 29% of the votes). He’s never held political office before. He also stands on the fence between the two parties; he’s been a Republican most of his life but ran as a Democrat and has supported other candidates in both parties. He ran on an anti-corruption platform and had made some attempts to deal with government corruption problems in his city before the flood. I don’t know New Orleans politics, but it looks to me like Nagin has had to deal with some pretty big problems while working with a fairly small power base. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/26 "2005-09-06T15:55:01Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Interesting—thanks! He seems like a naive, well-meaning reformer who’s in over his head. (And I’m glad I’m not alone in thinking he’s kinda hot!) I wouldn’t say he’s in over his head. I just think his vision for New Orleans is something that needs to be implemented over several administrations of different, but like-minded, mayors over a period a few decades. Reform has to start somewhere, and it has to start small. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/27 "2005-09-06T16:02:21Z")
Nagin’s real problem is that the Pubbies are DEFINITELY gonna go after him as the one responsible for mucking up the post-Katrina disaster response, to conceal the Homeland Security Dept’s failures. Look for the pundits to start spinning Real Soon Now. ---
**Author:** ![Bomzaway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e480ec/32.png) [@Bomzaway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bomzaway)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/28 "2005-09-06T16:08:14Z")
Although there is plenty of room for criticism of Nagin, comparing him to Giuliani is apples and oranges. As horrible as 9-11 was, the scope of the NO disaster far outweighs what happened in NY. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/29 "2005-09-06T16:11:50Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The levees are far from the mayor’s responsibility and if you think a city like New Orleans had a budget that could deal with it, you’re mistaken. I thought infrastructure is funded from mostly other-than-local funds. They’ve been working on this project for 40 years, and it was 80% complete and inadequate, seeing as it was designed to withstand a cat. 3 storm. The blame goes all around on this one, and I would say Nagin probably will get the lesser dose. The census study indicated 30% of the population had no car to evacuate with. The response time was laughable, and the in-fighting amongst the various government players was (and still is) downright shameful. Fuck these people and fire 'em all. There’s no good excuse anyone can come up with for the extent of the failures on this one. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/30 "2005-09-06T16:13:29Z")
> [@Bomzaway](#): > > Although there is plenty of room for criticism of Nagin, comparing him to Giuliani is apples and oranges. As horrible as 9-11 was, the scope of the NO disaster far outweighs what happened in NY. [hijack] I’ve been wondering how those outside of New York and New Orleans would weigh the two tragedies against each other. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/31 "2005-09-06T16:19:42Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Giuliani may be “America’s Mayor” now, but prior to 9-11 he was regarded as a paranoid control freak. But as fate would have it, there was a major crisis in New York City and a paranoid control freak was the right man in the right place. …snip… Could we possibly change that to “some thought Giuliana was a control freak”. Rudy took a NYC that was mighty low and by the time he was done, Businesses were moving back, Apartment values skyrocketed quality of life was much greater and NYC became and still is the safest large city in the USA. I was born in Bronx and still love my birthplace. I used to be afraid to visit my Grandmother or go to Yankee Stadium or the Bornx Zoo. My Grandmother has sadly passed away but before she died, it was no longer a worry to go into the Bronx, not even the South Bronx. Rudy did a great job before 9/11 and was the perfect man for 9/11. Sorry for the Hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/32 "2005-09-06T16:26:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Rudy took a NYC that was mighty low and by the time he was done, Businesses were moving back, Apartment values skyrocketed quality of life was much greater and NYC became and still is the safest large city in the USA. And the trains were running on time. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/33 "2005-09-06T16:26:33Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > [hijack] > > I’ve been wondering how those outside of New York and New Orleans would weigh the two tragedies against each other. > > [/hijack] Impartial history books 100 years from now will read: September 2001 - Hijackers Use Planes to Knock Down NY Office Buildings, Part of Pentagon. September 2005 - Hurricane Destroys Major American City, Much of Gulf Coast ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/34 "2005-09-06T16:28:31Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > True, but “inevitable” in what time scale? I’ve heard estimates from the Army Corps of Engineers that the type of storm that would level New Orleans had about a .5% chance of happening within the next 100 years. I assume they were pulling numbers out of thin air – there was no data they could have looked at 15 years ago that would give them any real insight into just how likely a Katrina really was. [Article in _National Geographic_, October 2004](http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/) (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > The chances of such a storm hitting New Orleans in any given year are slight, but **the danger is growing.** Climatologists predict that powerful storms may occur more frequently this century, while rising sea level from global warming is putting low-lying coasts at greater risk. “It’s not if it will happen,” says University of New Orleans geologist Shea Penland. “It’s when.” [From _National Geographic_, August 2005](http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0508/feature4/index.html) (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > Since 1995 the Atlantic has been producing powerful hurricanes at a hyperactive pace… many scientists agree that the present hurricane surge is likely part of a 60-to-70-year cycle that changes the strength of ocean currents distributing heat around the globe. Researchers have used tree rings and ice cores to track this variability back hundreds of years. **We’re now in a fast-flowing mode of this up-and-down cycle, named the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation (AMO), during which Atlantic sea-surface temperatures and wind conditions favor hurricane generation.** So while the chances of a powerful hurricane hitting a particular city are small, the danger is increasing and will do for the next decade or three. > [@jrfranchi](#): > > To Support **Johnny** Cheers! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/35 "2005-09-06T16:28:57Z")
Mayor Nagin is much more goat than hero, IMHO. He was the one who decided that, in event of a hurricane evacuation, poor people without cars were basically on their own. [He put a warning to that effect on a DVD](http://www.alternet.org/story/25068/) that was supposed to be distributed through churches in poorer neighborhoods, but it wasn’t widely distributed before hurricane season. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/36 "2005-09-06T16:31:48Z")
I don’t know whether he is a Hero or a Goat, but I do know one thing: he is downright handsome. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/37 "2005-09-06T16:33:15Z")
_Pan-pan greek god Pan. One half goat. The other half man."_ Before the hurricane, he could have done more, so he deserves plenty of the blame. After the hurricane, to blame him would be like blaming someone stuck inside a burning building. That person can’t really do much, and it’s up to folks on the outside with access to things to do the saving. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/38 "2005-09-06T16:37:46Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > \*Pan-pan greek god Pan… [‘Pan-pan’](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-pan) is also a distress call, though unlike ‘mayday’ it does not indicate immediate assistance is required. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/39 "2005-09-06T16:45:25Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > [hijack] > > I’ve been wondering how those outside of New York and New Orleans would weigh the two tragedies against each other. > > [/hijack] Seems like a no-brainer to me. The NO tragedy appears not only worst but also way more difficult to handle. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/40 "2005-09-06T16:46:56Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > _Pan-pan greek god Pan. One half goat. The other half man."_ > > Before the hurricane, he could have done more, so he deserves plenty of the blame. > > After the hurricane, to blame him would be like blaming someone stuck inside a burning building. That person can’t really do much, and it’s up to folks on the outside with access to things to do the saving. That’s kinda how I feel about him too. As a mayor, he should have done more to get people out of town and take care of those left behind. But even if he had done all the things he was supposed to do, there were still going to be plenty of victims. NO would still have been needed FEMA. And FEMA’s delay would have still resulted in the tragic loss of life (as apparent in Jefferson Parish, which was not under Nagin’s control). He was a hero in that 1) he did not abandon his city and 2) he put his neck out by calling the government out on its incompetence. The former is required but the latter is not. I don’t think he’ll come out of this unscathed, but I don’t think his constituents will blame him that much (not that there’s much they can do now, being dispersed to the four winds). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342.md?page=3)