# New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin: Hero or Goat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 6, 2005, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342 "2005-09-06T14:30:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/41 "2005-09-06T16:55:36Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > [hijack] > I’ve been wondering how those outside of New York and New Orleans would weigh the two tragedies against each other. > [/hijack] I’m almost a New Yorker and I consider NO to be worse in terms of humanity and on par in terms of economics. WTC and the financial district being forced to shutdown probably push the economy into recession, NO and the resulting Gas & Oil increases and decreased produce shipments may very well push us back into a recession. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/42 "2005-09-06T17:05:34Z")
And by the way, I’m still puzzled that essentially nothing was done to evacuate people without cars. Especially since an existing plan included what would seem to quite everybody an obvious ation to take : marshalling busses and setting up gathering points for evacuation. It apparently just wasn’t implemented (or maybe never planned in sufficient detail to be implemented). IMHO (letting the “H” in, for once) based on what I hear and read, the two most unexcusable faults were this complete lack of implementation of a proper evacuation plan by the local authorities and the nomination as head of the FEMA of someone who had zero qualifications for the job. I’d be unable to make any assessment about the other issues (for instance delays in bringing in food, deploying the national guard…) because I’ve no clue whether, given the circumstances, it was actually possible to do much better. But picking a failed horse competitions judge to oversee large scale rescue operations or saying to people “you must evacuate, find on your own some way to go out and some place to stay” are both beyond the pale. In both cases, a minimaly sensible asssesment of potential risks long before the catastrophe happened would have avoided these monumentaly stupid blunders. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/43 "2005-09-06T17:06:19Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > He was a hero in that 1) he did not abandon his city… Can you elaborate? I thought he fled to Baton Rouge while the poorer residents were left behind to fend for themselves? Do you mean he didn’t abondon the city “in his thoughts”? When the captain yells “abandon ship!”, his job is to make sure everyone gets into a lifeboat, not to jump into one himself at the first opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/44 "2005-09-06T17:10:54Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I’d be unable to make any assessment about the other issues (for instance delays in bringing in food, deploying the national guard…) I saw an Air National Guard general on CNN who said that the storm passed the air base on Tuesday and they were on-site Wednesday evening. He said that in his opinion 24 hours was an acceptable response time. What was shocking was the admission by the head of FEMA that he did not know about the people stuck in the Convention Center until Saturday or Sunday. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/45 "2005-09-06T17:13:49Z")
Why would Mayor Nagin be a hero? 1. He didn’t shore up the levee system 2. He didn’t order the evacuation fast enough 3. He didn’t provide people with transportation once an evacuation had been announced 4. He did very little to help people after the hurricane and especially after the flooding. You can argue all you want to about how he didn’t have the money or the political capital or the authority to get any or all of the above four accomplished. Maybe it’s entirely his fault or maybe absolutely none of it is his fault. I think it would be reasonable to assume that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. But all this arguing is really about whether we define Nagin as “goat” or “non-goat.” What, in the last week, has made Nagin a hero? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/46 "2005-09-06T17:34:55Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Why would Mayor Nagin be a hero? > > 1. He didn’t shore up the levee system He had no control over that. > [@Enderw24](#): > > But all this arguing is really about whether we define Nagin as “goat” or “non-goat.” What, in the last week, has made Nagin a hero? Agreed [This article](http://www.alternet.org/story/25068/) is pretty damning of the mayor, as well as others. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/47 "2005-09-06T17:35:40Z")
Mayor Nagin failed to follow his own emergency plan and that was the main cause for those people stranded in shelters. The condition of the levees were known and beyond his power to alter. His responsibility in this situation was to move those people (incapable of doing so) to a place beyond the direct effects of the hurricane. At the time of the decission to evacuate there was a potential for a category-5 hurricane striking the city head on. Instead of moving people out of the city he locked them INTO a city that is below sea level. The problems of rescue would still exist because the Mayor failed to articulate the seriousness of the situation. I would guess that 20-30% of the populace remained behind which probably represents a much higher percentage of poor people who could have departed but didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/48 "2005-09-06T17:46:25Z")
It’s quite true that 9-11 and Katrina were completely different disasters. Another difference is that there was no immediate warning for 9-11. Yes, there was speculation in the intelligence community that terrorists might crash planes into buildings, and New York is an obvious terrorist target, and the WTC had been attacked before, but there was no indication that “In the next 48 to 72 hours, there is a significant chance that a major disaster will occur”. In other words, there was nothing to warrant an evacuation. In Katrina’s case, there was such a warning, and there was time for at least a partial evacuation. That evacuation was handled exceedingly shoddily, whether by poor planning or poor execution, either of which was the responsibility of local government. Or, to put it another way: In New York, Guiliani had about 30 seconds advance notice of a disaster, and reacted calmly. In New Orleans, Nagin watched a disaster unfold over a period of many days, and panicked. I can’t begin to say who should bear “most” of the blame. There’s an awful lot of it to go around. But I think it fair to say that a sizeable chunk of it is on the mayor’s shoulders. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/49 "2005-09-06T18:07:42Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Can you elaborate? I thought he fled to Baton Rouge while the poorer residents were left behind to fend for themselves? Do you mean he didn’t abondon the city “in his thoughts”? > > When the captain yells “abandon ship!”, his job is to make sure everyone gets into a lifeboat, not to jump into one himself at the first opportunity. IIRC, his family escaped to Baton Rouge, but he never left the city. He was stationed out of a wind-battered office building the whole time. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/50 "2005-09-06T18:10:44Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > In other words, there was nothing to warrant an evacuation. In Katrina’s case, there was such a warning, and there was time for at least a partial evacuation. That reads as though you aren’t aware that approximately 80% of New Orleans’ residents evacuated. Of course, the figure needed to be much closer to 100%. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/51 "2005-09-06T18:17:59Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > IIRC, his family escaped to Baton Rouge, but he never left the city. He was stationed out of a wind-battered office building the whole time. Nope, the Hyatt Hotel. > [@](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/03/national/nationalspecial/03mayor.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/03/national/nationalspecial/03mayor.html) > > [Mayor Nagin] has been camped out for days on the 27th floor of a structurally damaged and powerless hotel in New Orleans, sending runners to communicate with the few staff members who remain in an increasingly futile effort to run some semblance of a municipal government. > [@](#): > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/01/AR2005090102413.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/01/AR2005090102413.html) > > New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin stares at the apocalyptic wreckage of his city from a window in his makeshift command post in the Hyatt hotel, which sits across a flooded street from City Hall. His wife and three children have been evacuated. He has sent most of his staff to higher ground in Baton Rouge. But he remains behind, like a captain determined to stay with his sinking ship. > [@Eve](#): > > • There was no evacuation/refugee plan in place (which, unlike levee repair, did not require government funds). Eve, they had a plan. You can read it here (pdf file): [SOUTHEAST STATE OF LOUISIANA EMERGENCY OPERATIONS PLAN SOUTHEAST LOUISIANA HURRICANE EVACUATION AND SHELTERING PLAN]([http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf](http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf)) ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/52 "2005-09-06T18:43:02Z")
I’m not intending to be a smart-ass here, but aren’t most of you overestimating the power of a mayor? Guliani may have seemed like a hero, but honestly, what exactly did he do? He had two office building in a business; not residential; district go down. Not to dismiss this, but he never had to call and evacuation, he didn’t have survivors, so he didn’t need to a lot of shelter space. He lost little infrastructure, not even long term phone or power. Even the shells of the building fell, so he didn’t have massive tear-down to do. I know it may sound like I’m not giving him any credit, but at the same time, he gets no blame. Likewise with Nagin. Mayors can’t call for evacuations, they can’t call in the military, they can’t call in FEMA or Homeland Security, and they can’t force people to leave who don’t want to. They also can’t get the Army Corps of Engineers to construct anything, and they can’t get any infrastructure built including roads or bridges. Mostly mayors control the Cops, Fire Department, and School Department. Nagin is neither Hero or Goat. He’s simply a Mayor under really, really, shitty circumstances If we want to blame anyone I’m going to say it should be the LA Governor, and then the Dept. of Homeland (DHLS) Security. I would say FEMA, but as they are under DHLS, so that’s where the blame falls. The Gov. waited far too long to call for Mandatory evacuations, and DHLS and FEMA fucked up in so many different places, there’s bits of them everyone. We have been _pouring_ money into the DHLS, what the heck has it gotten us? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/53 "2005-09-06T18:59:48Z")
There would be a whole lot less complaining about Nagin if he had made transportation available for his poorest, most at risk people. 80% is a really crappy level of evacuation, when you think about it. Especially when a large part of the remaining 20% stayed only because they had no way to get out. His primary responsibility was to call the emergency and evacuate the city. Second was to set up refuges to wait out the storm, and manage them until the feds showed up. I’m not exactly happy with anybody’s response to this disaster. The only people who are heros are the feet on the street, none of the higher ups have impressed me. As much a Guliani may not have been “liked” nobody wanted to go back to the Dinkins days. Guliani was elected in a city that was a wreck, and was one of the primary driving forces that made it livable again. During 9/11 he was a calm, strong individual during our most difficult hour. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/54 "2005-09-06T19:12:05Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Nope, the Hyatt Hotel. OK, I stand corrected about him leaving town. I thought I heard on the radio news that he went to Baton Rouge. As for those who dismiss the comparison to Giulini… hey, every crisis is different and we have to take the hand we’re dealt. “I kept getting lousy cards” is an excuse, not a reason. At any rate, the comparison is being made and will continue to be made. He’ll have to deal with that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/55 "2005-09-06T19:13:59Z")
> [@light strand](#): > > We have been _pouring_ money into the DHLS, what the heck has it gotten us? There are probably 10 threads going on now about how FEMA screwed up. Few, if any, posters are saying they did a good job. This thread is asking about Nagin. ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/56 "2005-09-06T19:15:31Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > There are probably 10 threads going on now about how FEMA screwed up. Few, if any, posters are saying they did a good job. This thread is asking about Nagin. Then feel free to read the top 90% of my post. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/57 "2005-09-06T19:18:13Z")
> [@light strand](#): > > Likewise with Nagin. Mayors can’t call for evacuations, Nonsense. > [@](#): > > [CIVIL DISTRICT COURT FOR THE PARISH OF ORLEANS STATE OF LOUISIANA CITY OF NEW ORLEANS PROMULGATION OF EMERGENCY ORDERS](http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=1&tabid=43) > > NOW, THEREFORE, I, as the Mayor of the City of New Orleans, pursuant to the authority granted by La. Rev. Stat. 29:727, do hereby promulgate and issue the following orders, which shall be effective immediately and which shall remain in effect until the earlier of five days following the date of this issuance or the declaration by the Governor that the State of Emergency no longer exists: > > 1. > > ``` > A mandatory evacuation order is hereby called for all of the Parish of Orleans... > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/58 "2005-09-06T19:47:53Z")
Sorry about that **Shayna** , I was reading the previous [cite](http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf) you put up, and in section D, where it specifically states who-does-what in case of a Hurricane, not once is a Mayor mentioned. > [@](#): > > D. Organization and Assignment of Responsibilities > The organization and assignment of primary and secondary responsibilities > are detailed in the State Emergency Operations Plan (EOP). Listed below are > the key participants and their roles in the event of a catastrophic hurricane: > > 1. Governor: > > a. Proclaim a State of Emergency. > b. Issue supplementary declarations and orders, as the situation > requires. > c. Authorize and direct the use of State government personnel and > other resources to deal with the emergency. > d. Authorize and direct the authorities of non-risk parishes to > coordinate the opening and operation of shelters with DSS in > conjunction with ARC, and to lend all possible assistance to the > evacuation and shelter effort. > e. Request Federal government assistance as needed. > 2. Adjutant General/Director, Louisiana Office of Emergency > Preparedness (LOEP): > > a. Serve as the Governor’s executive agent and lead agency for the > management of emergency and disaster operations. > b. Coordinate state and local operations. > c. Prepare and coordinate requests for assistance to other states > and the Federal government. > d. Keep the Governor and the Legislature informed of progress and > problems in dealing with the emergency or disaster. > > 1. Louisiana State Police (LSP): Maintain order on State highways and > expedite the flow of traffic from the risk to the host parishes. > > 2. Dept. of Transportation and Development (DOTD): Assist in > 01/94 maintaining evacuation routes at full capacity until rising wind and > water necessitate closure. > > 3. Dept. of Social Services (DSS): Coordinate the opening of shelters in > conjunction with the ARC for evacuees from the risk area. > > 4. Dept. of Health and Hospitals (DHH): Coordinate the evacuation and > sheltering of people who have special medical and health needs. > > 5. Parishes: Conduct and control local evacuation in parishes located in > the risk area and manages reception and shelter operations in parishes > located in the host area. Of course I’m assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that the aformentioned parish responsibility falls to a different body than the city Mayor. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/59 "2005-09-06T19:59:32Z")
> [@light strand](#): > > Sorry about that **Shayna** , I was reading the previous [cite](http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf) you put up, and in section D, where it specifically states who-does-what in case of a Hurricane, not once is a Mayor mentioned. Of course I’m assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that the aformentioned parish responsibility falls to a different body than the city Mayor. As I just said to **John Mace** in another thread, is it any wonder this is such a monumental mess? Nobody seems to know, or be able to precisely interpret from the myriad documents and “Plans,” who should be doing what, when and how. It’s a bloody nightmare! ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342/60 "2005-09-06T20:25:08Z")
I think nobody HERE seems to know for sure, I find it difficult to believe that the Mayor of New Orleans does not know if he or someone else is in charge of evacuating the Parish. From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parish_of_Orleans) > [@](#): > > The Parish of Orleans, Louisiana is the location of the City of New Orleans. The city and parish governments are one and the same. The city covers the entire parish. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-mayor-ray-nagin-hero-or-goat/320342.md?page=4)