# New Orleans Saints Bounty Scandal **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 3, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642 "2012-03-03T15:16:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/41 "2012-03-05T22:59:33Z")
What if we learn that many, many teams have had similar incentive plans? Suspend everyone? Have the offense players play defense and offensive coordinators coach defense? If so, get ready for some high scoring games. Ironically, the Saints would probably benefit most from widespread defensive suspensions. They haven’t had much of a defense recently anyway. My guess is that Goodell, being the slimeball that his is, would suspend and fine the Saints players and coaches. He’d then cover-up everything else for the good of the league. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/42 "2012-03-05T23:07:08Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > What if we learn that many, many teams have had similar incentive plans? I’m sure you can’t suspend everybody at once, but something could be worked out. “You can’t punish anybody because everybody was doing it” is not a workable policy. > [@](#): > > My guess is that Goodell, being the slimeball that his is, would suspend and fine the Saints players and coaches. He’d then cover-up everything else for the good of the league. Is this based on anything in particular? Anyway it’s already being reported that Williams will be interviewed by NFL brass about what went on with his other teams. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/43 "2012-03-05T23:24:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > …Is this based on anything in particular?.. Yes, but please disregard it for now to prevent a hijack. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/44 "2012-03-05T23:28:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m sure you can’t suspend everybody at once Sure you can. Suspended players don’t count toward the salary cap or the 51 player limit for the game(s) they are suspended. Sure, the defense would suck with a lot of street-type free agents filling in week to week, but it isn’t hard to field a full-sized team. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/45 "2012-03-06T02:14:06Z")
If I were a Saints fan I’d be wondering about the other unmentioned implication of all of this: If the players were busy trying to tune other players up for money, how many assignments did they miss? How many tackles did they miss trying to knock a guy out? How many games might the Saints have won that they ended up losing so that a guy could take his shot at the bounty money? One would think that players paid so lavishly would be immune to those sorts of things, but it’s clear that they were not. Interesting that it casts a shadow over not only their wins but also their losses. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/46 "2012-03-06T02:27:28Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I may actually take back my “Fuck the New Orleans Saints” viewpoint if Benson has the sack to fire Loomis. After the whole Loomis/Payton vicodin thing didn’t result in a firing, I have little to no faith that this will. Maybe the PR on this will prompt Benson to fire him, but until that happens, fuck the Saints. " New Orleans Saints owner Tom Benson isn’t backing off his support of his general manager and coach, even as his team is accused by the NFL of maintaining a bounty program to injure opponents. While Benson cooperates with NFL officials in their investigation of the bounty program that spanned the last three seasons, he is standing behind general manager Mickey Loomis and head coach Sean Payton — even though the league says they knew about the bounties." So, to reiterate: Fuck the Saints. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/47 "2012-03-06T15:49:14Z")
Up front: I’m not a Saints fan. I would never make excuses for cheap shots or deliberate attemts to cripple another player. And I’m not going to object if/when Gregg Williams and others get lengthy suspesions or heavy fines. That said… I’m not sure there’s as much to this “scandal” as many people assume. The payoffs or “bounties” I’ve read about amount to very, very little money, especially for players who are often making millions. Are we to believe that a millionaire linebacker like, say, Ray Lewis would hit Tom Brady any harder because there was an extra few hundred dollars in it for him? I don’t see it. I’m sure that Lewis ALWAYS tries his best to hit Tom Brady as often and as hard as possible, because that’s his job and because it gives the Ravens their best chance to win. A few hundred or even a few thousand dollars aren’t going to affect his motivation. Beyond that… look, we’ve probably all heard of quarterbacks and coaches offering players various incentives for top-notch performances. To use a few hypothetical cases, SUPPOSE you read that: 1. Eli Manning told his offensive linemen before a game, “Get me through this game without a sack, and I buy you each a Rolex,” would that bother you? 2. LaDainian Tomlinson told his offensive line before a big game, “Get me some big holes- and if I get 100 yards today, I’ll take you and your wives to Peter Luger’s Steakhouse, all you can eat or drink, on me.” Would that bother you? Most likely, all football fans have heard of incentives like that being offered, and nobody minds… but isn’t that offering linemen incentive to chop block, to leg whip, to do almost ANYTHING (legal or illegal) to opposing defenders? Oh, Eli doesn’t have to SAY “Break Suh’s leg” or “Cripple DeMarcus Ware,” but the message comes through as “Don’t allow any sacks- STOP those guys, and I don’t care how.” Obviously, football is a violent game… but I remember well how Lawrence Taylor reacted after he broke Joe Theismann’s leg one Monday night. Even a guy who REVELLED in flatening quarterbacks ws horrified to see Theismann’s broken leg, and screamed frantically for medical help for Theismann. Even the hardest hitting defensive players DON’T want to see their opponents maimed or paralyzed. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/48 "2012-03-06T15:54:22Z")
Does the N.F.L. have any effective penalties at hand? I’d like to see an N.C.A.A.-style death penalty for something as disgusting as this. Perhaps a five-year ban on playoff appearances or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/49 "2012-03-06T16:02:27Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > The payoffs or “bounties” I’ve read about amount to very, very little money So they were only encouraging each other to injure and knock out their opponents _a little_. Yes, that makes it seem less outrageous. > [@](#): > > Even the hardest hitting defensive players DON’T want to see their opponents maimed or paralyzed. There’s always James Harrison. And like I said earlier, it’s hard not to notice how often Bobby McCray’s name comes up in this bounty story. > [@Acsenray](#): > > Does the N.F.L. have any effective penalties at hand? I’d like to see an N.C.A.A.-style death penalty for something as disgusting as this. Perhaps a five-year ban on playoff appearances or something like that. No, you’ll never see something like that. But over the last few years the league has gotten tougher about fining and suspending players for dangerous or illegal hits. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/50 "2012-03-06T16:07:18Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > " New Orleans Saints owner Tom Benson isn’t backing off his support of his general manager and coach, even as his team is accused by the NFL of maintaining a bounty program to injure opponents. > > While Benson cooperates with NFL officials in their investigation of the bounty program that spanned the last three seasons, he is standing behind general manager Mickey Loomis and head coach Sean Payton — even though the league says they knew about the bounties." > > So, to reiterate: Fuck the Saints. I’m not especially tuned into the sports scene, but I enjoy scandal schadenfreude as much as the next guy. I read this quote of a quote of the owner and I conclude, he knew all along. His guys are being loyal to him in that they say they ignored the order to stop the bounties, but in reality, I don’t think there was an order at all. Payton and Loomis are lying to protect the owner, an owner who has real assets that would be vulnerable to a lawsuit. If it were known that the owner supported this nonsense, then I would expect any and all players injured by the Saints to sue his ass raw. That’s my wild guess, but something stinks there. You’re going to stand behind guys who disregarded your directions? Really?! It looks far more plausible that he WANTED them to disregard his directions. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/51 "2012-03-06T16:13:15Z")
I would think that if anyone were interested in suing, they could easily sue Benson anyway. The NFL report exonerates him, but an investigation by plaintiffs’ attorneys might not. The thing that really protects Benson the most is the mindset of NFL players. They don’t want to be seen as whiners. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/52 "2012-03-06T16:21:56Z")
Oh sure, anyone can sue anyone else, but the case is certainly harder with statements along the lines of the owner asked for the practice to be stopped versus the owner encouraged it. The suit may or may not still have merit, but it certainly would be easier to prove culpability if there is explicit evidence of his condoning the bounties. Like I said, it’s a wild guess on my part. I can’t think of any better reasons for supporting a couple of guys who disobeyed me and as a result of that insubordination brought shame and dishonor to my team. Payton and Loomis have something on the owner. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/53 "2012-03-06T16:29:18Z")
Maybe they do. Or maybe he doesn’t care that they didn’t listen to him because they won games, and winning and continuing to employ them is the best thing for business. In any case Benson’s position on Loomis and Payton (particularly Loomis) could change as this unfolds. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/54 "2012-03-06T16:34:12Z")
I’ve heard a theory that the rise of concussions and other injuries in the N.F.L. can be attributed to the use of better and better padding and armor. In other words, if the players were limited to the leather helmets and padding that were available in the 1920s, they’d be much less likely to risk serious injury by hitting the opposition brutally. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/55 "2012-03-06T16:43:06Z")
That’s sort of true. It is definitely the case that when you make an activity safer for people, you often see them engage in riskier behavior. If you took away the padding and big helmets you might see a decline in the big dangerous hits, but you’d still see plenty of injuries because players are bigger and stronger and faster than ever and there would be less protection. The real problem isn’t the big hits. It’s the repeated “minor” hits (which are still objectively hard) over years and years of practice and games at the high school and college and pro levels. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/56 "2012-03-06T16:55:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The real problem isn’t the big hits. It’s the repeated “minor” hits (which are still objectively hard) over years and years of practice and games at the high school and college and pro levels. For example, Bengals WR [Chris Henry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Henry_%28wide_receiver%29#Death), who died in a traffic accident in 2009, was found to already have been suffering from chronic traumatic encephalopathy at the age of 26, despite having never been diagnosed with having suffered a concussion, either in the NFL, or in college. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/57 "2012-03-06T20:48:15Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Are people mad about the money part or the targeting players for injury part? Because if it’s the former, I think the money itself was hardly an incentive to guys making thousands of times that a year. > [@astorian](#): > > The payoffs or “bounties” I’ve read about amount to very, very little money, especially for players who are often making millions. Are we to believe that a millionaire linebacker like, say, Ray Lewis would hit Tom Brady any harder because there was an extra few hundred dollars in it for him? I don’t see it. I’m sure that Lewis ALWAYS tries his best to hit Tom Brady as often and as hard as possible, because that’s his job and because it gives the Ravens their best chance to win. A few hundred or even a few thousand dollars aren’t going to affect his motivation. The money may not have been much of an incentive to star linebackers who already have salaries in the millions. But a lot of the most brutal hits come on special teams plays (especially punts and kickoffs) because the field is wide open and players can really get a head of steam up for a block or tackle. And special teams players are frequently second-stringers who make the league minimum, or a little more. These guys know that they will never make millions, and they know that they don’t have a lot of job skills to fall back on after their six-year career. If they’re smart, they’re saving up now, and if they’re trying to live the big-shot life while they can, they need a lot of money to keep up with the stars that they associate with. > [@astorian](#): > > Beyond that… look, we’ve probably all heard of quarterbacks and coaches offering players various incentives for top-notch performances. > > To use a few hypothetical cases, SUPPOSE you read that: > > 1. Eli Manning told his offensive linemen before a game, “Get me through this game without a sack, and I buy you each a Rolex,” would that bother you? > > 2. LaDainian Tomlinson told his offensive line before a big game, “Get me some big holes- and if I get 100 yards today, I’ll take you and your wives to Peter Luger’s Steakhouse, all you can eat or drink, on me.” Would that bother you? > > Most likely, all football fans have heard of incentives like that being offered, and nobody minds… but isn’t that offering linemen incentive to chop block, to leg whip, to do almost ANYTHING (legal or illegal) to opposing defenders? Oh, Eli doesn’t have to SAY “Break Suh’s leg” or “Cripple DeMarcus Ware,” but the message comes through as “Don’t allow any sacks- STOP those guys, and I don’t care how.” > > Obviously, football is a violent game… but I remember well how Lawrence Taylor reacted after he broke Joe Theismann’s leg one Monday night. Even a guy who REVELLED in flatening quarterbacks ws horrified to see Theismann’s broken leg, and screamed frantically for medical help for Theismann. Even the hardest hitting defensive players DON’T want to see their opponents maimed or paralyzed. I have no issue with informal bonuses for positive performance like you’re suggesting. Frankly, I’d have no issue with _formal_ bonuses like that. If the Saints (or my Colts) want to give D-linemen a thousand bucks for each sack, more power to them. But to financially incentivize injuring another player is a whole different thing. It’s the pay-for-injury thing that I object to, not the idea of a bonus system for good play. And if it turns out that those bonuses are incentivizing dirty play, then the league needs to fine dirty players to offset those bonuses. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/58 "2012-03-07T01:16:48Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > I’m seeing plenty of irritation… from _offensive_ players. Defensive players are saying it happens everywhere, it’s part of the game, etc. The difference is striking. Examples? Not saying they don’t exist, of course, just that I haven’t run across any, and the links I posted included quotes from plenty of offensive players who gave the standard ‘no big deal’ response. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/59 "2012-03-09T16:29:20Z")
While we wait for the NFL to punish the Saints, it is looking worse and worse for them. The contributions to the bounty fund weren’t just coming from players, but also outside sources, included two time convicted felon and asswipe Michael Ornstein, who, in an email to Sean Payton pledged $10,000 to the fund (and pledged three other times). Payton says he never read the email (sure, he’s not a control freak or anything) and Ornstein says it was a joke. Ornstein also allegedly offered a $10,000 bounty on Aaron Rodgers before the NFL kickoff game last year. Seeing as how Ornstein embezzled from the NFL, went to prison for fraud on the fans of the NFL, and now is implicated in actual violations of the salary cap from outside sources, it’s not looking good for the Saints and Sean Payton. Once again, fuck the Saints. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/60 "2012-03-09T17:01:42Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > While we wait for the NFL to punish the Saints, it is looking worse and worse for them. The contributions to the bounty fund weren’t just coming from players, but also outside sources, included two time convicted felon and asswipe Michael Ornstein, who, in an email to Sean Payton pledged $10,000 to the fund (and pledged three other times). Wow. Gregg Williams, for whatever it’s worth, is said to be “cooperating” with the NFL’s inquiry. The players’ association is obviously concerned about what’s going to happen to the participants because it is conducting its own investigation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642.md?page=4)