# New Orleans Saints Bounty Scandal **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 3, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642 "2012-03-03T15:16:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/81 "2012-04-23T20:51:41Z")
Wow, this just gets worse. Apparently Michael Loomis, GM for the Saints, violated not only league rules but federal communication laws by using a listening device to [eavesdrop](http://tracking.si.com/2012/04/23/report-saints-gm-mickey-loomis-could-eavesdrop-on-opposing-coaches/?sct=hp_t2_a2&eref=sihp) on opposing coaching staffs. How is this franchise ever going to get out of shit creek? ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/82 "2012-04-23T21:06:04Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Wow, this just gets worse. > > Apparently Michael Loomis, GM for the Saints, violated not only league rules but federal communication laws by using a listening device to [eavesdrop](http://tracking.si.com/2012/04/23/report-saints-gm-mickey-loomis-could-eavesdrop-on-opposing-coaches/?sct=hp_t2_a2&eref=sihp) on opposing coaching staffs. > > How is this franchise ever going to get out of shit creek? Firing Loomis would be a first step (of course the Saints are denying the accusation). ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/83 "2012-04-23T22:48:37Z")
[More details here](http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7846290/new-orleans-saints-mickey-loomis-eavesdrop-opposing-coaches-home-games). Looks like the criminal statute of limitations has probably expired for the wiretapping, and also for a conspiracy to coverup wiretapping, if any occurred, so long as no wiretapping or no overt acts to cover it up occurred in 2007 or later. The statute of limitations for civil actions begins with discovery, so it is possible teams or individuals could sue the Saints…if they could prove this actually happened. Proving it might be difficult if the alleged system is no longer in place. ---
**Author:** ![dotchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/84 "2012-04-27T12:18:04Z")
Every player who said “this happens all the time, no biggie” should no longer be allowed to whine about how playing in the NFL supposedly ruined their lives forever, negotiate better post-retirement medical benefits, or sue the NFL for damages over permanent physical or mental disability. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/85 "2012-05-02T16:22:00Z")
[Jonathan Vilma has been suspended for the entire season. The other suspensions are eight games for Hargrove, four for Will Smith, and three for Scott Fujita.](http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7881761/nfl-bans-four-players-new-orleans-saints-bounty-roles) All suspensions are without pay, as usual. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/86 "2012-05-02T16:50:34Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [Jonathan Vilma has been suspended for the entire season. The other suspensions are eight games for Hargrove, four for Will Smith, and three for Scott Fujita.](http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7881761/nfl-bans-four-players-new-orleans-saints-bounty-roles) All suspensions are without pay, as usual. I wonder what the NFLPA is going to say about this. On the one hand they almost always support players on suspensions, especially extreme ones like this. On the other hand these players are being suspended for egregiously bad behaviors aimed at injuring other players. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/87 "2012-05-02T17:06:24Z")
Anthony Hargrove is now a Packer, which makes me a tad bit upset. Not because they need his help on the D Line (they do, desperately), but because he’s a lying piece of garbage who earned his suspension. Screw him. I hope Worthy, Neal, and/or Muir make him expendable and get him off the Packers. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/88 "2012-05-02T17:08:12Z")
The NFLPA won’t, and probably can’t, assume the suspended players are guilty, and I assume they will get the usual full representation when they appeal. Fujita is also a member of the NFLPA executive committee, which may have been one reason the announcement was delayed to this point - it’s an interesting complication. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/89 "2012-05-02T17:09:38Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Anthony Hargrove is now a Packer, which makes me a tad bit upset. Not because they need his help on the D Line (they do, desperately), but because he’s a lying piece of garbage who earned his suspension. Screw him. I hope Worthy, Neal, and/or Muir make him expendable and get him off the Packers. Aren’t the Packers missing another DL to start the season? I wonder if it will have a big impact on the rest. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/90 "2012-05-02T17:58:02Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We’re further down the line than that- the lawsuits have been in the works for a couple of years. I agree the response has at least as much to do with the NFL’s liability in those types of lawsuits as it does with what the Saints actually did, but that doesn’t mean the league is wrong to crack down on the Saints like this. I wonder if this might actually end up hurting the league’s position on these lawsuits. The league is emphatically saying that these bounty programs are terrible, are outside of the norm for football, and should not be allowed. Now what if Jim McMahon (or whoever) can show that there were such bounties against him when he played? Or even that the league was aware of the practice, but didn’t act to stop it? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/91 "2012-05-02T17:59:49Z")
If somebody can show the league was aware of these bounties and didn’t do anything about it, they’re in a lot of trouble no matter what. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/92 "2012-05-02T18:15:30Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > I wonder what the NFLPA is going to say about this. It’s a union; unions defend their members. It’s their job. > [@borschevsky](#): > > Now what if Jim McMahon (or whoever) can show that there were such bounties against him when he played?\*\* Or even that the league was aware of the practice, but didn’t act to stop it?\*\* The bolded part is what they’d have to prove, and that would be very, very hard to do. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/93 "2012-05-02T18:30:45Z")
> [@furt](#): > > It’s a union; unions defend their members. It’s their job. I realize that, but I am wondering to what extent, since the bounty program is out to hurt players as well. I realize this is players versus the league in terms of the technicality of the suspensions, but surely they must also be cognizant of the fact that these bounty programs are specifically out to hurt other players. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/94 "2012-05-02T22:59:55Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > I realize that, but I am wondering to what extent, since the bounty program is out to hurt players as well. I realize this is players versus the league in terms of the technicality of the suspensions, but surely they must also be cognizant of the fact that these bounty programs are specifically out to hurt other players. When player A levels player B with a cheap/late/illegal hit, and player A is appealing discipline, the union has always supported and helped player A. Not saying it’s the way it _should_ be, but AFAIK, it’s the way it’s been in every case. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/95 "2012-05-03T13:13:45Z")
“I intend to fight this injustice, to defend my reputation, to stand up for my team and my profession, and to send a clear signal to the commissioner that the process has failed, to the detriment of me, my teammates, the New Orleans Saints and the game.” Fuck you Jonathon Vilma. Much like the Kevin and Pat Williams’ appeals of their suspensions, I expect the lawyers to get involved and file a suit against the NFL after the initial appeal is settled. Then, after a trial court makes a finding, maybe an appeal of that, and all kinds of subsequent legal wrangling, which will take at least a couple years to sort out. The biggest question I see is whether the court that hears his appeal will grant a stay and let Vilma (and whoever joins in the appeal) play while the mess gets sorted out. If so, hell, Vilma is 30, so he could retire before he completes his suspension. While I’m glad that the NFL hired a former US Attorney for New York to oversee the evidence and determinations, I do kinda wish the NFL would reveal more of it’s evidence for the suspension, just to shut some of these people up. But who am I kidding, the actual evidence won’t really matter. It will be dissected, gone over, denied, and any conclusions drawn for it will be demeaned as if this were a criminal death penalty case. The one thing I am a bit glad about is that fighting this will keep the bounty scandal in the forefront of the press every so often rather than just disappearing. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/96 "2012-05-04T12:53:14Z")
Apparently the NFLPA has taken a stance on one issue. They believe that Roger Goodell doesn’t have the authority to suspend players for anything that occurred before the new CBA came into effect and that the NFL hasn’t provided enough evidence to support the suspensions. And it’s being reported Vilma had an appointment to speak with Goodell about the investigation/suspension, but backed out of it. Big tough guy indeed. ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/97 "2012-05-11T03:29:20Z")
I know this story is dying off quite a bit after the suspensions, which certainly makes everyone that expressed how outraged they were about violence in football feel good about themselves, but the whole thing is getting shadier and shadier: -Hargrove claims that his letter to the NFL was “grossly mischaracterized” > **[Hargrove says NFL "grossly mischaracterized" his words](https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/hargrove-says-nfl-grossly-mischaracterized-his-words)** > > When the declaration of former Saints defensive end Anthony Hargrove was published on Monday, many in the media (including ESPN) interpreted it to mean that Hargrove had been told to lie by Saints coaches. -Williams claims the same: > **[Report: League "misrepresented" Gregg Williams' interviews](https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/report-league-misrepresented-gregg-williams-interviews)** > > When it comes to the question of whether the NFL should release all evidence related to the Saints alleged bounty program, the evidence in favor of putting all cards on the table continues to grow. > [@](#): > > “[A]ccording to a source close to [former Saints defensive coordinator Gregg] Williams, the NFL has also misrepresented what Williams said in interviews with the league. According to the source, Williams never admitted a ‘bounty program’ was in place and that the league ‘rephrased his statements to satisfy its needs.’ The source also said Williams never identified any players for their involvement in a pay-for-performance or bounty program.” -Now, there’s dispute over the email Ornstein sent to the Saints > **[League, union at odds over Ornstein email](https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/league-union-at-odds-over-ornstein-email)** > > The league's case against the Saints arises in part from an email message from Mike Ornstein in which Ornstein purports to contribute $5,000 to a bounty on Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers. The whole “it was a running joke” thing sounds fishy, but they make two good points: > [@](#): > > In reality, the Ornstein email wasn’t directly sent to Payton. Instead, it came to team spokesman Greg Bensel, who then forwarded it to the coaching staff with this message: “email from Orny **(he asked that I send it) the dude is in prison so I told him I would.”** The bolded part certainly makes it sound like Bensel felt bad for the guy and was simply humoring him by forwarding the email, not any sort of serious offer of a bounty. Then: > [@](#): > > “When I wrote that email, I was in jail,” Ornstein said. “How was I going to pay for it? In stamps? I’m in federal jail in Florence.” I guess he could have found a way to get money to Williams, but it seems like it would have been a lot of trouble him. The NFL really should release the evidence they have against the Saints. I haven’t heard a single argument against it except “they don’t have to.” All indications I’ve seen point to the Saints having a pay for performance system in place (which our very own Hamlet’s Packers were running as recently as 2007). [http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2012/03/nfl\_investigated\_green\_bay\_pac.html](http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2012/03/nfl_investigated_green_bay_pac.html) Where is the evidence that the Saints were paying bounties for knockouts and cartoffs? How many of the Saints opponents in the past 3 years have needed to be carted off the field (answer: none). What dirty hits did the Saints commit against the 9ers after GW’s famous speech (spoilers: none, and Pierre Thomas was the only player knocked out of the game after a helmet to helmet hit)? If this is for mostly punishment for"continuing to run the system after being told not to", which I’ve heard many make, then why the fuck did Fujita get suspended when he left after 2009, Williams’s first season? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/98 "2012-05-11T13:09:05Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > If this is for mostly punishment for"continuing to run the system after being told not to", which I’ve heard many make, then why the fuck did Fujita get suspended when he left after 2009, Williams’s first season? What do you see as the NFL’s master plan and motive in lying about the bounty gate? What’s the payoff? What’s the upside for Goodell in lying and fabricating evidence to implicate the Saints? Why would the NFL bring in a unbiased third person (and ex-US Attorney General in New York) to review the evidence? And why would Payton and Williams not put up more of a fight/denial of their suspensions? As I already said, while I wish the NFL would show it’s evidence, I can completely understand why they wouldn’t, because it will continue to be denied, picked apart, and dissected so some kind of reasonable doubt can be gleaned and the players can pretend it didn’t happen. There’s no upside to a public trial. The players will continue to deny it and try to explain away the evidence and cry out that it’s so unfair, the NFL will continue to assert that it is enough, and that the players agreed that Goodell is the arbiter of what is enough evidence, and nothing will change. Saints apologists won’t be convinced, the legal challenge to the suspensions will go on, and nothing will be gained. Even if we had all 18000 pages of documents, all the exhibits, heard from all the witnesses, and looked at all the tapes, it still comes down to a basic decision (a decision supposedly given to Goodell) on whether or not it happened. The evidence won’t prove it beyond a doubt, nor will there not be any evidence whatsoever. It will be somewhere in that vast middle that lets those who want to believe what they want to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Ivorybill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ee59a6/32.png) [@Ivorybill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ivorybill)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/99 "2012-05-11T16:19:37Z")
Saints fan and former New Orleanian checking in here. Late, I know. Haven’t read the whole thread, although I have been following this story through the media. It looks to me like the NFL built a big house of cards by twisting what was undoubtedly a pay-for-performance program (strips, fumble recoveries, sacks, etc.) and some rumors and joking among the staff from the Vikings’ accusations after the 2009 NFC CG to try to paint the Saints as having a bounty program. I think that the house of cards is already tumbling, and when it falls and the evidence is out, the NFL will be the ones with the black eye, not the Saints, for faking a tough stand to bolster the NFL’s defense against the concussion lawsuits. The main thing that’s never sat well with me is the economics of the purported bounty system. To earn $1,000 or $1,500 for the bounty (or the $10,000 Vilma supposedly offered), players would have been risking big fines from the league. Even if you believe that the players aren’t the brightest bulbs, who among them is going to go out of his way to try take a guy out for the chance to lose $24,000 or $23,500 each time (more or less, depending on the fine)? It makes no sense. Since the inception, players and coaches have admitted that there was a pay-for-performance system. It went on after the league told the Saints to stop it. Pay-for-performance is against the NFL rules. So punishment is merited. But the head coach for a whole year? To borrow a phrase, c’mon man! Saints coaches and players, however, have been maligned by the NFL and by the media, have not been shown the evidence the NFL says supports their allegations that there was a bounty system, and the vast majority of the media and NFL fans have bought the mess of lies about the Saints without question. This is not going to go away any time soon, and I would not be surprised if this winds up costing the careers of a number of high-level NFL executives, possibly even Roger Goodell’s. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/100 "2012-05-11T16:24:04Z")
> [@Ivorybill](#): > > Saints fan and former New Orleanian checking in here. Late, I know. Haven’t read the whole thread, although I have been following this story through the media. > > It looks to me like the NFL built a big house of cards by twisting what was undoubtedly a pay-for-performance (strips, fumble recoveries, sacks, etc.) and some rumors and joking among the staff from the Vikings’ accusations after the 2009 NFC CG to try to paint the Saints as having a bounty program. I think that the house of cards is already tumbling, and when it falls and the evidence is out, the NFL is going to be the ones with the black eye, not the Saints, for faking a tough stand to bolster the NFL’s defense against the concussion lawsuits. > > The main thing that’s never sat well with me is the economics of the purported bounty system. To earn $1,000 or $1,500 for the bounty (or the $10,000 Vilma supposedly offered), players would have been risking big fines from the league. Even if you believe that the players aren’t the brightest bulbs, who among them is going to go out of his way to try take a guy out for the chance to lose $24,000 or $23,500 each time (more or less, depending on the fine)? It makes no sense. > > Since the inception, players and coaches have admitted that there was a pay-for-performance system. It went on after the league told the Saints to stop it. Pay-for-performance is against the NFL rules. So punishment is merited. But the head coach for a whole year? To borrow a phrase, c’mon man! > > Saints coaches and players, however, have been maligned by the NFL and by the media, have not been shown the evidence the NFL says it supporting their allegations that there was a bounty system, and the vast majority of the media and NFL fans have bought the mess of lies about the Saints without question. This is not going to go away any time soon, and I would not be surprised if this winds up costing the careers of a number of high-level NFL executives, possibly even Roger Goodell’s. Now if there was only a reasonable explanation as to why in the world Roger Goodell would create said of house of cards to try and bring scorn upon the Saints at the risk of careers and the reputation of the NFL then you might have something. But the far more likely explanation is that the Saints had a bounty system, lied to the commissioner about it and got punished. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642.md?page=6)