# New Orleans Saints Bounty Scandal **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 3, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642 "2012-03-03T15:16:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/101 "2012-05-11T16:28:56Z")
It sucks that the Saints were a feel-good story a couple of years ago and at this point have turned into the Raiders. ---
**Author:** ![Ivorybill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ee59a6/32.png) [@Ivorybill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ivorybill)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/102 "2012-05-11T16:37:27Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Now if there was only a reasonable explanation as to why in the world Roger Goodell would create said of house of cards to try and bring scorn upon the Saints at the risk of careers and the reputation of the NFL then you might have something. But the far more likely explanation is that the Saints had a bounty system, lied to the commissioner about it and got punished. Two words: concussion lawsuits. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/103 "2012-05-11T16:39:51Z")
> [@Ivorybill](#): > > Two words: concussion lawsuits. The NFL is undoubtedly very concerned about those lawsuits and that may be a factor in the severity of the punishments here. The theory you’re pushing is still nonsense. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Ivorybill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ee59a6/32.png) [@Ivorybill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ivorybill)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/104 "2012-05-11T16:46:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The NFL is undoubtedly very concerned about those lawsuits and that may be a factor in the severity of the punishments here. The theory you’re pushing is still nonsense. Sorry. And the theory many people are pushing - - that players would engage for several years in a system that provided absolutly zero financial incentive for their continued participation - - is nonsense. On a bit more reflection, I think a plausible ending is that Goodell will soon release the evidence. The pay-for-performance allegations will be validated. The bounty system will be proven to be a fabrication by the NFL’s investigators. Those NFL employees who worked the investigation will be fired for misleading Goodell. No telling what happens to the coaches and the players in terms of their suspensions. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/105 "2012-05-11T16:50:05Z")
> [@Ivorybill](#): > > And the theory many people are pushing - - that players would engage for several years in a system that provided absolutly zero financial incentive for their continued participation - - is nonsense. If athletes always did the financially rational thing, they would hardly ever be fined for fouls and would never be fined for celebrating touchdowns and criticizing referees and the league. You’re dreaming about the conclusions of the investigation being withdrawn. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/106 "2012-05-11T16:55:18Z")
> [@Ivorybill](#): > > And the theory many people are pushing - - that players would engage for several years in a system that provided absolutly zero financial incentive for their continued participation - - is nonsense. Do you really think that the money paid is the only motivating factor for players to injure other players in the NFL? Players want to win. Players want to keep their jobs. Players want other players to like them. Players want to be part of a team. There’s a myriad of reasons Anthony Hargrove hit Brett Favre late and then celebrated when he was knocked out, and it wasn’t just the money. > [@Ivorybill](#): > > On a bit more reflection, I think a plausible ending is that Goodell will soon release the evidence. The pay-for-performance allegations will be validated. The bounty system will be proven to be a fabrication by the NFL’s investigators. Those NFL employees who worked the investigation will be fired for misleading Goodell. No telling what happens to the coaches and the players in terms of their suspensions. Wanna bet? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/107 "2012-05-11T16:57:07Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > There’s a myriad of reasons Anthony Hargrove hit Brett Favre late and then celebrated when he was knocked out, and it wasn’t just the money. Although I seem to recall reading that he was overheard (and caught on audio and video) yelling “Pay me!” after the hit. But I agree with your broader point here: players didn’t do it just for a little extra cash; they did it because of the team culture that was represented by the money. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/108 "2012-05-11T17:00:42Z")
People in general just like getting stuff, have you ever seen how folks act when a $3 t-shirt with a teams logo on the front and a Bank’s logo on the back gets shot into a crowd. You’d think they are shooting Faberge eggs into the crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Ivorybill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ee59a6/32.png) [@Ivorybill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ivorybill)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/109 "2012-05-11T17:06:26Z")
Guess y’all have your minds made up and aren’t willing to entertain ideas other than your own. Enjoy the rest of the thread! ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/110 "2012-05-11T17:09:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Although I seem to recall reading that he was overheard (and caught on audio and video) yelling “Pay me!” after the hit. But I agree with your broader point here: players didn’t do it just for a little extra cash; they did it because of the team culture that was represented by the money. Especially when you consider how Gregg Williams tried to get Hargrove to lie to the NFL about the bounty program (which apparently didn’t exist, but needed to be lied about somehow). He promised a chance to start at DE to Hargrove before Hargrove was interviewed by the NFL about the program, and then made sure after the fact that Hargrove did indeed deny it to them. Or course he didn’t actually give Hargrove that chance (according to Hargrove), but it shows the kind of player manipulation coaches will do and the player’s motivations for some of their actions beyond strictly money. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/111 "2012-05-11T17:10:45Z")
> [@Ivorybill](#): > > Guess y’all have your minds made up and aren’t willing to entertain ideas other than your own. Enjoy the rest of the thread! Nice hissy fit. If/When more evidence comes in, we can go over it all you like. But this whiny little stomping off is unbecoming. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/112 "2012-05-11T17:23:54Z")
Being unwilling to entertain implausible ideas is not a personal fault. Williams coached my Bills years ago and I am sure if all of this were happening to them now, I would hate to watch them villified every day. But as explanations go, “It was all a joke” really does not work, and “you’ll see it’s a frame-up, the investigation will be thrown out, and if Goodell doesn’t scapegoat the investigators, he and other top NFL brass may resign in disgrace” is just fevered homerism. You’re not the first person or the last to cling to hope, but come on. This is a conspiracy theory. ---
**Author:** ![Ivorybill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ee59a6/32.png) [@Ivorybill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ivorybill)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/113 "2012-05-11T17:45:09Z")
Come on, **Hamlet** , that was no hissy fit and this isn’t the pit. I have a big report I’m writing and I have to limit the SDMB time. Disagree with the homerism tag. I’ve said that there is plenty of evidence for a pay-for-performance system and that punishment is warranted. If you follow the articles that are being posted on Pro Football Talk and on [SI.com](http://SI.com), Vilma’s attorney is raising some very valid points about the lack of evidence, the twisting of statements, the lack of independence in the NFL’s outside counsel, and plenty of other smoke-makers that suggest very strongly that the NFL has overplayed its hand. Goodell wouldn’t be the first executive to take excessive action based on faulty recommendations. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out, regardless what you personally think of the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/114 "2012-05-11T17:58:18Z")
> [@Ivorybill](#): > > Disagree with the homerism tag. I’ve said that there is plenty of evidence for a pay-for-performance system and that punishment is warranted. Yes, but the punishment for that would be much, much lower and the moral or sporting issue would be just about nil. I haven’t followed the ins and outs of the appeals, but I expect Vilma’s lawyer to do what he’s being paid very well to do. ---
**Author:** ![Ivorybill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ee59a6/32.png) [@Ivorybill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ivorybill)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/115 "2012-05-11T18:09:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yes, but the punishment for that would be much, much lower and the moral or sporting issue would be just about nil. You’re catching on, sir. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/116 "2012-05-11T18:14:08Z")
> [@Ivorybill](#): > > You’re catching on, sir. So you understand why I’m describing it as homerism? ---
**Author:** ![Ivorybill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ee59a6/32.png) [@Ivorybill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ivorybill)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/117 "2012-05-11T18:27:31Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > So you understand why I’m describing it as homerism? So you understand why I’m describing it as fishy? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/118 "2012-05-11T18:29:13Z")
> [@Ivorybill](#): > > So you understand why I’m describing it as fishy? Yes: homerism. Your understanding appears to differ. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ivorybill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ee59a6/32.png) [@Ivorybill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ivorybill)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/119 "2012-08-14T14:53:12Z")
For those not keeping tabs, some current press: [Peter King, SI’s Monday Morning Quarterback, Page 5](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/peter_king/08/12/mmqb/4.html): 1. I think it’s clear Jonathan Vilma had a very good day in federal court Friday, trying to overturn the NFL’s suspension of him. Very good, but not great. Great would have been Judge Helen Berrigan dismissing the NFL’s suspension of Vilma, and though it seemed clear she wanted to act in his favor and strike down his one-year ban by Roger Goodell, she felt she couldn’t do so because she wasn’t legally empowered to. She said holding off on a decision "makes me crazy because I don’t think it was fair,‘’ speaking of the suspension process. So it appears Berrigan will take some time to try to find a way to examine what exactly Goodell has a right to do and what he can’t do. Also here: [Settlement urged in Vilma lawsuit](http://www.boston.com/sports/football/articles/2012/08/11/judge_in_vilma_bounty_case_urges_sides_to_settle/) and semi related: [State Police find no evidence that Saints GM Mickey Loomis eavesdropped](http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2012/08/state_police_find_no_evidence.html) ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642/120 "2012-10-09T23:42:55Z")
In the latest bit of news, Goodell announced that he was re-affirming the discipline of the Saints players involved, but decreasing the amount. Fujita’s suspension went from 3 to 1 games and Hargrove’s went from 8 to 7. Vilma’s and Smith’s remain the same. It’s likely they will re-appeal, so, of course this won’t be over yet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-saints-bounty-scandal/614642.md?page=7)