# New Orleans Shelters' "Atrocities" - why did we so readily believe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 26, 2005, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516 "2005-09-26T16:58:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516/21 "2005-09-28T03:01:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Was there some reason we shouldn’t have? Sort of like the whole WMD debate, ehe? 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516/22 "2005-09-28T03:10:41Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Sort of like the whole WMD debate, ehe? 😛 Ehe… no. If there had been piles of evidence that there were no ‘atrocities’ that outweighed a few vague suggestions that they did, it’d be comparable, and I wouldn’t have believed them in that case. It sounds like _the reporting_ was equally deficient in both situations, however. ---
**Author:** ![Alice\_The\_Goon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Alice\_The\_Goon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alice_The_Goon)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516/23 "2005-09-28T03:19:25Z")
I spoke about these purported incidents with a coworker and a friend of mine. They both took the attitude of “oh my god, can you believe those black people in New Orleans? Once the hurricane hit, they took it as license to act like crazed animals, with the raping and the killing! Hell, no, I’m not sending MY money down there to help them, look what they’ve been doing!” As much as I tried to convince them that there weren’t any reports, witnesses or victims coming forward to support the stories, only rumors, both of them adamantly believed that these things happened and they were therefore justified in not participating in any assistance efforts. It really pissed me off. I have some forwarding to do. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516/24 "2005-09-28T03:36:28Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Sort of like the whole WMD debate, ehe? 😛 > > -XT There is one little difference. Once we found out it (the murdering raping baby eating New Orleans reports) we admitted we were wrong. Now about those WMD’s. Anyone found them yet? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516/25 "2005-09-28T03:37:11Z")
> [@trublmakr](#): > > As much as I tried to convince them that there weren’t any reports, witnesses or victims coming forward to support the stories, only rumors, both of them adamantly believed that these things happened and they were therefore justified in not participating in any assistance efforts. It really pissed me off. > > I have some forwarding to do. Go to it and good luck. I’m not really kicking myself for falling for this - I hadn’t realized that there were so few sources - but even if they were true, this attitude was repugnant. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516/26 "2005-09-28T03:43:28Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > There is one little difference. Once we found out it (the murdering raping baby eating New Orleans reports) we admitted we were wrong. Now about those WMD’s. Anyone found them yet? Afaik once they failed to find them most people, including the administration IIRC also admitted they were wrong. I was wrong…I thought they would be there. I admitted this well over a year ago (actually 2 years ago I believe). So…what was the difference again? BTW, I said what I said mostly tongue in cheek…but hell, if you want to make it easy I’ll take it. 😉 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516/27 "2005-09-28T03:48:57Z")
By George, no one’s mentioned racism in this thread yet! We’ve got the word ‘black’, and **tomndebb** linked to a thread on ‘race relations’, but how can we hope to explain the ‘ready belief’ posited in the OP _without_ explicitly dealing with racism? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516/28 "2005-09-28T04:21:49Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > The number of murders is normal for a city of 500,000, not a city reduced to 50,000 by evacuation. It is dishonest to say 4 murders is normal under those circumstances. There is a subset to that argument depending on which group you focus on (the murdered vs the murderer). Numbers and statistics have many levels of perspective. If the people most likely to commit the crime stayed behind then the ratio remains the same. When the National Guard was finally released for police duty they delayed going into the Superdome until they could provide overwhelming force. Who wears the fool’s hat on this one? Are the major networks going to chastise themselves over this? Is it possible they caused a diversion of assets away from harder hit states because of their New Orleans coverage? Don’t know. Would like to though. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516/29 "2005-09-28T04:24:54Z")
The claim of 10X elevation in the murder _rate_ might also be misleading, if that part of the population that was not evacuated typically accounted for more than its share of murders in normal times. I would like to see those purportedly exaggerated and anti-American accounts of the hurricane aftermath in the foreign press before drawing conclusions. Regrettably, I do find it easy to believe that the BBC was eager to make America look bad, based on past performance (most recently, in its coverage of the latest space shuttle launch). ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516/30 "2005-09-28T09:23:12Z")
> [@trublmakr](#): > > I spoke about these purported incidents with a coworker and a friend of mine. They both took the attitude of “oh my god, can you believe those black people in New Orleans? Once the hurricane hit, they took it as license to act like crazed animals, with the raping and the killing! Hell, no, I’m not sending MY money down there to help them, look what they’ve been doing!” As much as I tried to convince them that there weren’t any reports, witnesses or victims coming forward to support the stories, only rumors, both of them adamantly believed that these things happened and they were therefore justified in not participating in any assistance efforts. It really pissed me off. > > I have some forwarding to do. I have to warn you that it may not work. My local paper had the _Los Angeles Times_ article in it yesterday. When I showed to a couple of coworkers, each one in turn said the truth would come out. Of course, one of them also believes that Terry Schiavo was murdered by her husband, but that’s Pit material. I think it’s simply a desire to experience some vicarious horror, kind of like watching a horror movie or reading Steve King, coupled with a tendency to believe the worst of people. In this case, we already had the horror of a hurricane, people trapped and unable to get out ultimately being warehoused, or so it sounded. Why not pile on one bit of horror into an situation most people can’t imagine? Maybe there’s even an element of “You see how depraved these people are, which is why something like this couldn’t happen to a nice, respectable person like me” or “Those people deserved what they got.” I’ll own up and say racism is probably a factor. While it’s not polite to admit one thinks less of people of other races, I know far too many people who do. Unlike my coworkers, I have left my home for higher, safer ground in the face of an on-coming Category 5 hurricane. It was the most terrifying and unsettling experience of my life. I mean, when you leave home, you generally assume it’ll still be standing when you get back; that day, I couldn’t make that assumption. The furthest thing from my mind was committing violence of mayhem. My main focus was on getting through it and hoping I’d still have a home to go back to. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516/31 "2005-09-28T10:33:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If the people most likely to commit the crime stayed behind then the ratio remains the same. If? That’s a heck of a debating tactic; float an unsubstantiated claim, then treat it like a fact. Who says the remaining victims were mostly baby rapers, anyway? It sounds like you are conflating “poor black people” with criminals without justification. > [@](#): > > When the National Guard was finally released for police duty they delayed going into the Superdome until they could provide overwhelming force. Who wears the fool’s hat on this one? Are the major networks going to chastise themselves over this? Is it possible they caused a diversion of assets away from harder hit states because of their New Orleans coverage? Don’t know. Would like to though. WTF? How is the media responsible for delaying the deployment of the National Guard? Don’t know? Then I suggest you find out, before you float these unsubstaniated “what ifs” as fact. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516/32 "2005-09-28T10:41:22Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > If? That’s a heck of a debating tactic; float an unsubstantiated claim, then treat it like a fact. Who says the remaining victims were mostly baby rapers, anyway? It sounds like you are conflating “poor black people” with criminals without justification.WTF? How is the media responsible for delaying the deployment of the National Guard? Don’t know? Then I suggest you find out, before you float these unsubstaniated “what ifs” as fact. For goodness sake man. If the Liberal Media tell me and my heavily armed National Guard buddies there might be a few black people with guns and pointed sticks hurting the people I signed up to protect I’m as sure as hell not going to move until a few cruise missiles have cleared the way first. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516/33 "2005-09-28T15:02:46Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > WTF? How is the media responsible for delaying the deployment of the National Guard? Don’t know? Then I suggest you find out, before you float these unsubstaniated “what ifs” as fact. It is a fact that the National Guard was not released for policing dutines until the end of the week. It is a fact that when the state finally approved that action, the Guard did not move in immediately. It is also a fact, reinforced by events in Iraq in recent years, that troops know better than to swarm into an urban area without reconnaissance. There were reports of looting in Mississippi, as well as in Louisiana. There were no reports of shootings or murders in Mississippi. In Mississippi, when the Guard was sent in, it went in right away. It is not _baseless_ speculation to wonder whether the Guard units in New Orleans were more cautious about entering the city based on the appearance of widespread violence. It may or may not turn out to be related, but there is nothing inherently evil about wondering about the events and motivations. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516/34 "2005-09-28T15:20:21Z")
Why did people believe? Because they were really, really good stories and people love a good story better than a boring truth. Just wait, in a few years the stories will continue to be treated as fact, maybe even expanded on. It’s like the 80,000 people who died of cholera in Chicago in August, 1885. Cecil has done his damnedest to point out that there is not only no evidence of it but that it is patently absurd. He has had no luck changing even the _Chicago Tribune_. Why? Because it’s a really good story. ---
**Author:** ![Bomzaway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e480ec/32.png) [@Bomzaway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bomzaway)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516/35 "2005-09-28T15:21:02Z")
It all reminds me of that scene in War of the Worlds where everyone’s talking about what’s happening in other parts of the world and how they’re fighting the aliens. One group says, “Europe is gone, man!” and then the scene switches to another guy who’s saying that the Europeans have found ways to kill them. The complete lack of information bred rumor mills and speculation, which then became “facts” to the general public. Katrina kind of showed how WOTW was fairly accurate in its portrayal of how people would react given a large scale crisis, at least in that regard. Art imitates life… …and Art’s wife Hilda does a really good Joan Rivers. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516/36 "2005-09-28T16:00:58Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > It is not _baseless_ speculation to wonder whether the Guard units in New Orleans were more cautious about entering the city based on the appearance of widespread violence. It may or may not turn out to be related, but there is nothing inherently evil about wondering about the events and motivations. I think it is baseless to assume the National Guard (they are the ones with the automatic weapons) would demur on their responsibilities merely because it might put them in harm’s way, real or perceived. When there are reports of bad guys that are beyond the control of civil authorities, we call in the Guard! What good are they if they delay acting because they might encounter resistance? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516/37 "2005-09-28T16:12:28Z")
> [@](#): > > would demur on their responsibilities But this claim has not been made (yet). If, for example, the Guard waited long enough to have strength in depth and good recon, that would be prudent, not shirking. Had the charge been made that they quivered in fear until ordered in, I could see being upset at _that_ accusation (which was not made). Barring that, what is _your_ explanation on their delay once the command had been given? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516/38 "2005-09-28T16:13:24Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > I think it is baseless to assume the National Guard (they are the ones with the automatic weapons) would demur on their responsibilities merely because it might put them in harm’s way, real or perceived. Well, it’s what ABC told us was happening. I also thought that the Guardsmen were sounding surprisingly pussyish but you work with the data you have. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516/39 "2005-09-28T16:28:59Z")
Question: Most of the women I know are deeply moved by the story of “the rapes of the two little girls, one only seven years old, in the Superdome.” Thi is the dominant image they took from the entire hurricane reporting. In this thread, people seem to be talking as if “the rapes of the children” have been clearly debunked. Have they? Can I tell the women in my life to stand down, or is the event that serves to fuel their outrage real? Sailboat ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516/40 "2005-09-28T16:48:03Z")
According to the _Los Angeles Times_ article **Mehitabel** linked to in post 14, it’s been debunked, if I remember the article right. Tell the women you know that this woman and feminist says it’s ok to stand down on this issue. CJ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-orleans-shelters-atrocities-why-did-we-so-readily-believe/323516.md?page=3)