# New PC BS...
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [March 10, 2003, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318 "2003-03-10T15:41:27Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Lilly\_Putt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilly_Putt)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2003, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318/41 "2003-03-11T11:47:37Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Polycarp \*
> \*\*But one must remember that Jabba was not a hut but a Hutt.
> \*\*
**Poly** , You must be a sci-fi “socially challenged individual” to spit out a factoid such as this. 😉
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### Author:  [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318/42 "2003-03-11T13:42:34Z")
> [@](#):
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> The “Regatta” case is a pretty famous one- they were using it on a test, and only the rich kids had any clue what it meant.
Well god damnit, there goes the Pittsburgh Three Rivers Regatta. We can’t have that festival and boat race anymore because some poor kid from the Hill District might not know what it is, even though it’s all over TV, radio and flyers on telephone poles for months before the actual event.
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318/43 "2003-03-11T14:07:58Z")
> [@](#):
>
> ## To support the reality of PC, I’ll cite the recent flap about New York Regents exams. (NY Times, June 6, 2002, “State Exams Are to Regain Real Wording In Passages.”) quote:
>
> In recent weeks, [NY education commissioner] Mills has received letters from prominent figures in literature, including the novelists Annie Dillard and Frank Conroy and the poet Wendell Berry, complaining about the state’s policy of editing passages in the Regents exam, a policy described in an article in The New York Times on Sunday. The editing – characterized by critics as an ill-conceived effort to be politically correct – deleted nearly all references to race, religion, ethnicity, sex, nudity, alcohol and even modest profanity.
>
> ‘‘Who are these people who think they have the right to ‘tidy up’ my prose?’’ wrote Mr. Conroy. ‘‘The New York State Political Police? The Correct Theme Authority?’’
Exactly my point. What makes you think that it’s “politically correct” to remove references to sex, nudity, alcohol, and modest profanity? That sounds to me like good old-fashioned patronizing of children to me.
But it “patronizing” an offensive term? Is that why you’ve replaced it with “politically correct”? Or is it that you don’t score any smug right-wing points by calling it patronizing?
Nobody is denying that officious officials have a long history of bowdlerizing literature in an attempt to sanitize it for children. I’m not even denying that some insane creep of a principal in Eugene, OR has asked teacher to refer to “older people” rather than “the elderly”. What I’m calling bullshit on is the implication that the list in the OP represents some sort of mainstream educational agenda.
Daniel
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### Author:  [@KP235](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KP235)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2003, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318/44 "2003-03-11T14:56:28Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by KidCharlemagne \*
> \*\*Damn I was gonna make the Jabba the Hut joke so I’ll make the:
>
> Rain Forest Boogie??
>
> one instead. \*\*
Bungle in the Rain Forest…
Welcome to the Rain Forest…
George, George, George of the Rain Forest…
Tarzan, King of the…
Naw, it just does’t work.
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318/45 "2003-03-11T14:58:10Z")
I’m just waiting for **Miss Bain Forest** to come in here and get snarky.
Daniel
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### Author:  [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2003, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318/46 "2003-03-11T17:18:40Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by catsix \*
> \*\*Well god damnit, there goes the Pittsburgh Three Rivers Regatta. We can’t have that festival and boat race anymore because some poor kid from the Hill District might not know what it is, even though it’s all over TV, radio and flyers on telephone poles for months before the actual event. \*\*
I grew up a poor inlander, and I never knew what a regatta was until I was 21. Before then I had a vague notion that it was some kind of parade with boats in it, but I also though it might be some kind of place related to boats- like a place where you show them of or something. So if I were given a test question like:
> [@](#):
>
> In the sentence “Bob entered the regatta.”, “Entered” means:
> A. Joined B. Went in to C: inserted
I’d have trouble with the answer, not because I don’t know what ‘entered’ means, but because I don’t have any clue what a ‘regatta’ is. Let’s face it, boating culture is for the most part the realm of the rich. There are some poor people who do the boat thing, but largly it is rich people who are exposed to the specific vocabulary of boating. So it’s not appropriate to test people on 'regattas (unless the test is specifically about regattas, and the kids learned about regattas in class) just like it’s not appropriate to test people on Spanish words, or slang words that only certain groups regularly use, or on say, terms related to government services that only poor children are likely to be familier with.
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### Author:  [@NutMagnet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NutMagnet)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318/47 "2003-03-11T19:13:25Z")
What escapes the language police when they replace temrs with euphemisms, is that they water down the language. Specificity is lost.
Sometimes you just gotta call a spade a “spade” - or even a “fuckin’ shovel”.
What the hell is wrong with “Doctor”? Does this have connotations of maleness? Do we really need “health care provider”? Is this to avoid excluding shamans, witch doctors, voodo practitioners…?
This stuff makes me nuts!
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2003, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318/48 "2003-03-11T19:21:13Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by NutMagnet \*
> \*\*What the hell is wrong with “Doctor”? Does this have connotations of maleness? Do we really need “health care provider”? Is this to avoid excluding shamans, witch doctors, voodo practitioners…? \*\*
Again, people are looking at the wrong culprit here. My guess is that this has nothing to do with “politically correct” anything: this has to do with a diversification in the industry. “Health Care Provider” can refer to a hospital, a nursing home, a hospice, a registered nurse, a dietitian, a medical doctor, a physical therapist, an insurance company, or another entity.
Obviously, it’s sometimes useful to talk about these entities in the aggregate; do you have a suggestion for a better term?
Daniel
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318/49 "2003-03-11T19:27:05Z")
Apparently, **even sven** , you’ve never heard of vocabulary textbooks?
The article the OP cited, if true, is utterly and completely ridiculous.
Ya gotta regatta!
I doubt you’ll find many rich snobs down there anyways.
Drunken SLOBS, maybe. (Just kidding).
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### Author:  [@The\_Green\_Feather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Green_Feather)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2003, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318/50 "2003-03-11T19:34:18Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \*
> \*\*“Health Care Provider” can refer to a hospital, a nursing home, a hospice, a registered nurse, a dietitian, a medical doctor, a physical therapist, _an insurance company_, or another entity.
> \*\*
Refering to an insurance company as a health care provider is offensive to all health care providers. Insurance companies are **blood sucking leeches**. Wait an minute. Blood sucking leeches _have_ been used in health care. I’ll have to think about that.
BTW, Politically Correct, or, PC is offensive to politisians because it implies they are doing their job.
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### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318/51 "2003-03-11T19:37:25Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I grew up a poor inlander, and I never knew what a regatta was until I was 21.
I also grew up a poor inlander, but I knew what a regatta was in elementary school because. . . I read books. Try it sometime.
> [@](#):
>
> I’d have trouble with the answer, not because I don’t know what ‘entered’ means, but because I don’t have any clue what a ‘regatta’ is. Let’s face it, boating culture is for the most part the realm of the rich. There are some poor people who do the boat thing, but largly it is rich people who are exposed to the specific vocabulary of boating.
Nonsense. I learned nautical language from reading Robert Lewis Stevenson and Herman Melville.
You might as well say that only rural kids can tell the names of farm animals, or that only poor kids can figure out what how “stickball” is played.
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### Author:  [@tarfu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tarfu)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318/52 "2003-03-11T20:07:38Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by pizzabrat \*
> \*\* If you can’t keep up, you’re an old fart! \*\*
Hey, I resent being called an “old fart”.
Henceforth, please have the courtesy to refer to me as “aged flatulence”…
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2003, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318/53 "2003-03-11T20:09:23Z")
Oh, screw that. I read two to four books a week when I was a kid, and I didn’t know what a regatta was until this thread.
If the same test asked kids about entering an “arroyo,” I betcha more Texas Latino kids would get the correct answer than would kids from the Hamptons.
It baffles me that people would deny that such tests have cultural influences and biases. Whether we should take such biases into account when testing, or just trust that they’ll balance out, is a legitimate argument. But to deny that they’re there is just bizarre.
Daniel
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### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318/54 "2003-03-11T20:16:51Z")
> [@](#):
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> Oh, screw that. I read two to four books a week when I was a kid, and I didn’t know what a regatta was until this thread
\ More and more, I am convinced there is a living to be made as a Scrabble hustler.
> [@](#):
>
> If the same test asked kids about entering an “arroyo,” I betcha more Texas Latino kids would get the correct answer than would kids from the Hamptons.
Am I the only person here who looks up unfamiliar words in a dictionary or figures out meaning from context?
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### Author:  [@The\_Man\_Who](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_Who)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2003, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318/55 "2003-03-11T20:18:15Z")
“Euphemism Treadmill” is a damned useful phrase, and I’d like to thank BlackKnight for posting the excerpt.
One other thing to consider. Although this story is being broken on the conservative Fox News site (and earlier in the conservative cartoon Mallard Fillmore), the original excerpt from the book ran in the not-necessarily-conservative-at-all Atlantic Monthly. I scanned the article in Barnes and Noble last week, but I don’t remember what the author of the book’s thesis was. It’ll be interesting to see which direction she’s coming from.
-M
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2003, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318/56 "2003-03-11T20:28:50Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by gobear \*
> \*\*Am I the only person here who looks up unfamiliar words in a dictionary or figures out meaning from context? \*\*
Looking up words in the middle of a vocabulary test? Isn’t that called cheating?
My vocabulary is pretty damned good, I daresay. Everyone has words they’ve not heard of, whether it’s matsutake, peripatetic, oleaginous, arroyo, or regatta. Some words will be more familiar to members of specific social groups. This is unremarkable.
Daniel
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### Author:  [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318/57 "2003-03-11T20:40:51Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I also grew up a poor inlander, but I knew what a regatta was in elementary school because. . . I read books. Try it sometime.
Hmm. Were they specific books you read, or would just reading books in general tell you what a regatta is?
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318/58 "2003-03-11T20:56:04Z")
On-topic, if you want a very clear example of politically-correct bullshit in our country, check out [Freedom Fries](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=168865). Good God! I wonder when Fox News will cover this absurdity?
Daniel
hopefully not double-posting
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### Author:  [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318/59 "2003-03-11T22:16:54Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \*
> **Some words will be more familiar to members of specific social groups. This is unremarkable.**
Or more familiar in certain geographical areas – I dare say that _regatta_ is more likely to be known in coastal areas than inland.
Heh. This one immediately raised my hackles when I saw it in the OP. In the city I live, our anniversay day is also often called “Regatta Day” and as a kid we used to go to a hill overlooking the harbour and watch the thousands of colourful boats. I’d expect most kids in Auckland would know the word… that said, if you went a couple of hours drive south to inland Hamilton the percentages might well be different.
NZ is very small compared to the US – it must be hell…err… I mean _heck_ trying to formulate unbiased prose questions that can be used across that great area and numerous sub-cultural groups.
Or are the contents of tests like the SATs not the same across the country? Are there regional variations?
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pc-bs/160318/60 "2003-03-11T22:17:56Z")
> [@](#):
>
> What problems does this cynical word-shuffling address?
Reading comprehension problems, today? Read my first comment in my earlier post. (And regarding the word “challenge,” if Ravitch is simply _describing_ problems, than she is not proposing solutions, so my use of the word is, indeed, the _beginning_ of the issue.)
As to
> [@](#):
>
> Now, care to provide a few right-wing examples?
You will note that I expressly did not claim that the Right is involved with phrases (although they are quite capable of throwing out words as if they were epithets and branding anything that they do not like as “PC” even when there is nothing political or “correct” about the issue. (I heard one Right-wing nutcase claim that “previously owned” was an example of “PC” when applied to cars.) What do you think the odds are of finding a reference to Ho Chi Minh or Fidel Castro using the phrase “freedom fighter”? Yet, whatever some may think of their use of power once they achieved it, they were very clearly freedom fighters in their early struggles.
I can, however, provide a list (initially short, more on demand) of cases where the Right has applied pressure to ensure _censorship_, which was the statement I actually made:
In textbooks:
Pushing Creation Science (or intimidating publishers to downplay or ignore evolution).
In history texts, fear of being denied access to Right-wing veto in most markets (with special note of Texas) has caused most publishers to:
Portray the conquest of North America as a struggle between hardy settlers and “uncivilized savages,” thus minimizing the amount of culture and civilization that the indians actually had while downplaying the violation of white laws used to further the expansion.
Ignore multiple slave revolts, presenting the image that, if not happy with their lot, blacks were resigned to slavery.
Ignore the white-on-black riots of the first half of the 20th century, so that there is no context in which to recognize the perceived “fear of success” in the black community.
Ignore that blacks participated in Civil Service administration from its creation until they were removed during the Wilson administration, giving the appearance that they were never involved in management (leaving the impression that they were probably not “suited” for it).
Portray the war with Spain as a liberating exercise for Cuba, the Philipines, and the other territories we confiscated, rather than recognizing that it was raw empire building in which we immediately suppressed the independence movements that were already active (and that we ostensibly got involved to help).
Ignore the multiple “interventions” throughout most of Latin America and the Caribbean–several of which led directly to current situations in that region.
Pretend that Joe McCarthy was an aberration rather than recognizing that he was a symptom of an effort to suppress free speech and free association that lasted well over 20 years and destroyed many lives–and that even that effort was simply the tail end of a broader effort to reduce freedoms extending back to the 19th century.
Beyond textbooks, there is the issue of banning and bowdlerizing non-texts from or in the classroom for reasons of not upholding “American” or “Christian” values. Complaints from the Right have recently caused the banning of Shakespeare and the _Harry Potter_ books. A look at the [the most frrequently banned books of the 1990s](http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/People/spok/most-banned.html) shows an overwhelming majority thrown out by protests from the Right–only the two Twain books are generally opposed by misguided folks on the Left.
Now, it is possible that Ms. Ravitch addresses these and similar issues in her book. I have not condemned the book, outright, merely noting that if her work is simply a polemic against Left-wing stupidity and ignoring Right-wing stupidity, then it will not help the students.
One example of the methods of censorship:
[http://www.udel.edu/PR/UpDate/93/7/20.html](http://www.udel.edu/PR/UpDate/93/7/20.html)
(The Left is also guilty, but there is enough blame to go around, which was my point.)
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