# New Pics of 'Hazing' at Abu Ghraib **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 15, 2006, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613 "2006-02-15T10:48:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/1 "2006-02-15T10:48:31Z")
There are fifteen of them here that haven’t been previously seen, courtesy of the Sydney Morning Herald. Some of them are pretty bad, and a number of them are not safe for work. [This link goes to one that IS safe](http://smh.com.au/ftimages/2006/02/15/1139890768847.html), but if you click on “view all thumbnails”, you’ll get to all the rest. Dear Rush: still up for a fraternity initiation, Abu Ghraib-style? Or can we finally put that one to rest? Can we all agree that some of what went on at Abu Ghraib unquestionably crossed the line into torture? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/2 "2006-02-15T11:46:10Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > There are fifteen of them here that haven’t been previously seen, courtesy of the Sydney Morning Herald. Some of them are pretty bad, and a number of them are not safe for work. [This link goes to one that IS safe](http://smh.com.au/ftimages/2006/02/15/1139890768847.html), but if you click on “view all thumbnails”, you’ll get to all the rest. > > Dear Rush: still up for a fraternity initiation, Abu Ghraib-style? Or can we finally put that one to rest? Can we all agree that some of what went on at Abu Ghraib unquestionably crossed the line into torture? No decent human being would disagree. The problem is those savages that think it’s okay anyway, because of TWAT. And those that redefine ‘torture’ to suit their own evil purposes. EG Bush and co. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/3 "2006-02-15T12:01:17Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > The > Dear Rush: still up for a fraternity initiation, Abu Ghraib-style? Or can we finally put that one to rest? Can we all agree that some of what went on at Abu Ghraib unquestionably crossed the line into torture? As a general statement? Yes. Based solely on the photos you just linked to? No. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/4 "2006-02-15T14:04:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As a general statement? Yes. > > Based solely on the photos you just linked to? > > No. Did the guy in #8 just have a bad rash on his butt? The guys in #7, #13, and #14 - ran into a door, perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/5 "2006-02-15T14:10:12Z")
Maybe they just fell down the stairs. Yeah, that’s the ticket. Never underestimate a partisan’s capacity for self-deception. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/6 "2006-02-15T14:28:47Z")
**Bricker.** How do you suppose the (presumably Arab) guy on the far left corner in pic #11 wrote I AM A RAPEIST(sp) in perfect block letters in English on his own butt while lying down in a room of cowering naked men? I suppose that presumably naked and (if body language is to be accurately infered, terrified) man backed against the wall in pic #10 is merely trying to pet the nice German Shepherds two of those four guards are holding back on chain leashes as they lunge at him? And am I nuts or is the guard on the far left giving what looks like at first glance a Nazi salute? I agree with you that these still pictures, in an of themselves, do not unquestionably show torture at Abu Ghrahib. If one were ignorant of all the other facts that have come out about this place, one might be persuaded that the injuries on the prisoners was purely prisoner inflicted, or that they were quelling a riot, or strip searching the prisoners, and that the smiling guards were consummate professionals. But c’mon, man. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/7 "2006-02-15T14:29:44Z")
There’s video as well. > [@](#): > > One of the videos broadcast on the SBS programme Dateline on Wednesday appears to show prisoners being forced to masturbate to the camera. > > Other video footage appears to show a prisoner hitting his head against a wall. > > The channel said he was a mentally disturbed patient who became a plaything of guards who practised ways of restraining him. Always good to have a mentally disturbed person to practise :mad: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle\_east/4715540.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4715540.stm) ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/8 "2006-02-15T14:44:36Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > Maybe they just fell down the stairs. Yeah, that’s the ticket. > > Never underestimate a partisan’s capacity for self-deception. We don’t need to. We just have to wait for The Usual Suspects to chime in. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/9 "2006-02-15T14:57:18Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Did the guy in #8 just have a bad rash on his butt? > > The guys in #7, #13, and #14 - ran into a door, perhaps? Ihave no idea if their injuries came about before they were taken into custody. Do you, BASED ON THOSE PHOTOS? > [@Askia](#): > > I agree with you that these still pictures, in an of themselves, do not unquestionably show torture at Abu Ghrahib. If one were ignorant of all the other facts that have come out about this place, one might be persuaded that the injuries on the prisoners was purely prisoner inflicted, or that they were quelling a riot, or strip searching the prisoners, and that the smiling guards were consummate professionals. But c’mon, man. If only I had said something like, “Based solely on the photos you just linked to…” in response to the OP. If only I had acknowlged that yes, torture did happen. Oh, wait. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/10 "2006-02-15T15:13:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ihave no idea if their injuries came about before they were taken into custody. Do you, BASED ON THOSE PHOTOS? Well, of course not. I had no idea you were being _that_ lawyerly nitpicky, and I was supposed to throw out everything I ever once knew about Abu Ghraib. This ain’t a freakin’ court, **Bricker**. I can’t guarantee the chain of custody of those photos, either. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/11 "2006-02-15T15:15:48Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Well, of course not. I had no idea you were being _that_ lawyerly nitpicky, and I was supposed to throw out everything I ever once knew about Abu Ghraib. > > This ain’t a freakin’ court, **Bricker**. I can’t guarantee the chain of custody of those photos, either. Which word in “Based solely on the photos you just linked to” requires legal training to decipher? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/12 "2006-02-15T15:22:42Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Well, of course not. I had no idea you were being _that_ lawyerly nitpicky, and I was supposed to throw out everything I ever once knew about Abu Ghraib. > > This ain’t a freakin’ court, **Bricker**. I can’t guarantee the chain of custody of those photos, either. Stop responding. This is just the usual Bricker attempt to derail threads injurious to The Leader, into a legal nit-picking siding. He’s fooling no-one so just ignore it. The only way to win that game is not to play. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/13 "2006-02-15T15:50:39Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Stop responding. This is just the usual Bricker attempt to derail threads injurious to The Leader, into a legal nit-picking siding. > > He’s fooling no-one so just ignore it. The only way to win that game is not to play. I disagree, Bricker is stating an obvious problem with still pictures of injuries sustained by the detainee’s. Iraq is a war zone right now, I am sure all those detained where not in pristine condition prior to detention. He was simply stating that. From what I can see, he was not disputing that obvious abuses had occured, but he is not judging them from the photo’s. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/14 "2006-02-15T15:56:37Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > I am sure all those detained where not in pristine condition prior to detention. True, they probably got a Rodney King type reception when they were arrested. Like these poor fuckers who British soldiers taped themselves dealing with. > [@](#): > > Soldiers were shown chasing youths involved in the disturbance, dragging four of them into the compound and beating them on various parts of the body with batons and kicking them, one in the genitals. > > The attack is said to last for one minute, with 42 blows counted. > > The News of the World said a soldier could also be seen kicking a dead Iraqi in the face. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4707916.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4707916.stm) ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/15 "2006-02-15T15:59:48Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > I disagree, Bricker is stating an obvious problem with still pictures of injuries sustained by the detainee’s. Iraq is a war zone right now, I am sure all those detained where not in pristine condition prior to detention. > He was simply stating that. From what I can see, he was not disputing that obvious abuses had occured, but he is not judging them from the photo’s. Askia has already answered your and Bricker’s transparent nit-picks. Who do you think you’re fooling? The world knows what went on there and no pseudo-legalese wriggling is going to make a blind bit of difference. But if you want to believe shrapnel tatooed english phrases on prisoners and draped them in hood with wires attached to extremities you go right ahead and knock yourself out. You’ll pardon the rest of us if we just sit here and snigger. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/16 "2006-02-15T16:02:32Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > True, they probably got a Rodney King type reception when they were arrested. > > Like these poor fuckers who British soldiers taped themselves dealing with. > > [BBC NEWS | UK | Iraq 'abuse' needs rapid inquiry](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4707916.stm) Nothing in that film rules out the possibility that the alleged Iraqi’s were in fact aliens exercising mind control over the innocent British squaddies to engage in what is on the planet Zarg, a sexual act. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/17 "2006-02-15T16:13:49Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Askia has already answered your and Bricker’s transparent nit-picks. Who do you think you’re fooling? The world knows what went on there and no pseudo-legalese wriggling is going to make a blind bit of difference. > > But if you want to believe shrapnel tatooed english phrases on prisoners and draped them in hood with wires attached to extremities you go right ahead and knock yourself out. > > You’ll pardon the rest of us if we just sit here and snigger. You speak for everyone with the rest of us eh. Good to know that. Now can you answer for all of you with an apology for your comment? Seeing as I said > [@](#): > > From what I can see, he was not disputing that obvious abuses had occured, but he is not judging them from the photo’s. No one I have seen in this thread is denying abuse, you seem to be implying I am. But I will not base all my thinking based on pictures. Legalese? Please I cannot even begin to think in legal terms, I use common sense. And that sense tells me, pictures do not always tell the whole truth. If they did, I guess we might as well list Big Foot, The Lochness Monster in the newest editions of wildlife books eh. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/18 "2006-02-15T16:21:19Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > You speak for everyone with the rest of us eh. Good to know that. Now can you answer for all of you with an apology for your comment? Seeing as I said > No one I have seen in this thread is denying abuse, you seem to be implying I am. > But I will not base all my thinking based on pictures. > > Legalese? Please I cannot even begin to think in legal terms, I use common sense. And that sense tells me, pictures do not always tell the whole truth. If they did, I guess we might as well list Big Foot, The Lochness Monster in the newest editions of wildlife books eh. Apology? Dream on. And you might want to take your ‘common sense’ in for a check-up. Even to compare AG pictures to Bigfoot is a joke. Ponder the word ‘context’ and in relation to Bricker’s tactics, ‘prior form’. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/19 "2006-02-15T16:22:51Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Stop responding. This is just the usual Bricker attempt to derail threads injurious to The Leader, into a legal nit-picking siding. > > He’s fooling no-one so just ignore it. The only way to win that game is not to play. Argument By Attrition. Shit, I really should have trademarked that or something. -Joe™ ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/20 "2006-02-15T16:27:34Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > pictures do not always tell the whole truth. If they did, I guess we might as well list Big Foot, The Lochness Monster in the newest editions of wildlife books eh. Again that’s true. Let me ask you this though. Do _these_ pictures and videos indicate to you that abuses took place when placed along side the previous ones and the fact that Rummie himself has said that there are a lot more and they are a lot worse > [@](#): > > The American public needs to understand we’re talking about rape and murder here. We’re not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience.” Bullshit arguments that try to nitpick around the issue just come across as what they are. Bullshit. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613.md?page=2)