# New Pics of 'Hazing' at Abu Ghraib **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 15, 2006, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613 "2006-02-15T10:48:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/41 "2006-02-15T17:26:19Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > Oh I agree that the punishment stopped way short in the ranks, dismissing someone from command, rather then stripping them of freedom as should of been done. The common soldier took the fall for the abuse they gave, but not nearly enough punishment rolled uphill. > As someone in command takes the glory for the good, they should as well be held liable for the bad. If they did not know it was going on, they should of been court martialed for dereliction of duty or something similar. I “didn’t” know is not an excuse a commanding officer should be able to make over something so widespread as the abuse appeared to be. > > Now that said, it is my understanding the release of these newest pictures have little to do with a victory for free speech as the ACLU did not win its case as of yet, this was an Australian find. And to be honest, I do question the timing of the release by them, as it stands the Muslim anger was centered on a cartoon, nothing to do with America, now some of the anger may just increase, and be directed back at America. The ACLU did win and these pictures are the result. [BBC story](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4715540.stm) > [@](#): > > In September a New York judge ruled in favour of a request from the American Civil Liberties Union for the pictures to be released. > > The judge rejected the government’s arguments that publication could fuel anti-US feelings. The Dateline programme says the government is appealing against the decision. What gave you the idea an australian court can order the US Govt to release pictures? Any anger that results is due solely to those that caused the situation in the first place. The messenger is never to blame for anything. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/42 "2006-02-15T17:28:27Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > No is going to come into this thread and deny that torture occured at A-G. **Bricker** is no more than an inch away from that, with his “This \*alone \* isn’t enough proof to convict!” nonsense. (quotes are used there for paraphrasing, btw, as they are in normal English usage outside this board, m’kay?) So why talk about it? So we don’t forget about it. So when it comes up again it doesn’t get met with “That’s old stuff, move on, willya?” when it _isn’t_ old stuff. So the reflexive partisans, the self-appointed defenders of the indefensible don’t get any stronger a feeling than necessary that they’re on solid ground. So the casual readers of this forum, if not all participants, don’t think we’ve all begun to think this administration’s behavior toward “detainees” has become acceptable in any way or to any degree. If it makes you uncomfortable to face it and explore it, that’s your problem entirely. You can leave those of us citizens with a strong sense of ownership of, and responsibility for, our government in a democracy alone if you prefer. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/43 "2006-02-15T17:30:26Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > If we all actually agree abuse and torture was going on there is absolutely no point in saying you technically can’t prove it from pictures, unless your intention is not to discuss the subject but hijack it. Is that hard to understand? Is it hard to understand why GD regulars in this thread are tired by the same-old same-old tactic? I don’t really see a parade of GD regulars, **tagos**. I see about seven posters in this thread. Three of them – me, **Abbie Normal** , and **John Mace** - who understood the words of the English language as they appeared in my post. One more, **RT Firefly** , understands them as well, but questions my use of context. I don’t believe that **RT** is ascribing to me any more sinister motive than that. Then there’s the rest. Who is left for the parade of “GD regulars” tired of “the same old tactic?” ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/44 "2006-02-15T17:32:01Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > The ACLU did win and these pictures are the result. > > [BBC story](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4715540.stm) > > What gave you the idea an australian court can order the US Govt to release pictures? > > Any anger that results is due solely to those that caused the situation in the first place. The messenger is never to blame for anything. > [@](#): > > In a statement e-mailed to The Associated Press, SBS said the ACLU had not seen the images sought under the Freedom of Information request, so it had not been able to confirm whether they were the same as those broadcast Wednesday. [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11362767/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11362767/) Thats where I got the impression that these where not released to the ACLU. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/45 "2006-02-15T18:18:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > One more, **RT Firefly** , understands them as well, but questions my use of context. I don’t believe that **RT** is ascribing to me any more sinister motive than that. That would be correct. I find it somewhat _irritating_ to have to switch gears from thinking, “this is a normal person using words in normal ways,” to “this is a lawyer, using words in legal fashion in an inappropriate context.” We mathematicians use a bunch of ordinary words as mathematical terms of art, where (for instance) “almost every” allows for an uncountable number of exceptions, and “uncountable” itself means ‘not just infinite, but too big an infinity to be put into one-to-one correspondence with the integers.’ Unlike with the legal profession, though, our plans for world domination haven’t gotten nearly as far as the English language. So when speaking with mostly nonmathematicians, we don’t presume that people are, or should be, using ordinary terms in their mathematical sense. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/46 "2006-02-15T18:21:14Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > See, here’s the thing (and this is in response to \*\*RTF \*\*also). There is no real debate here. No is going to come into this thread and deny that torture occured at A-G. So why is it surprising when someone like \*\*Bricker \*\*tries to carve out some debate in this thread, and that the debate is narrowly focused? Otherwise, all we’d have is posts that say “yes, I agree”. The only people denying there was torture at A-G are not posters in this forum. Really, John? Do you actually, really believe that “The only people denying there was torture at A-G are not posters in this forum.”? Unless your memory has gotten very short, you will, I’m sure, recall people who agreed with OxycontinBo that it was “just hazing”. Right here in this very forum. Do you truly not remember that? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/47 "2006-02-15T18:49:22Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Really, John? > > Do you actually, really believe that “The only people denying there was torture at A-G are not posters in this forum.”? > > Unless your memory has gotten very short, you will, I’m sure, recall people who agreed with OxycontinBo that it was “just hazing”. Right here in this very forum. Do you truly not remember that? > > -Joe I don’t recall it, but perhaps it was in a thread I missed. I certainly never SAID it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/48 "2006-02-15T19:14:35Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Really, John? > > Do you actually, really believe that “The only people denying there was torture at A-G are not posters in this forum.”? > > Unless your memory has gotten very short, you will, I’m sure, recall people who agreed with OxycontinBo that it was “just hazing”. Right here in this very forum. Do you truly not remember that? > > -Joe No, I don’t remember anyone saying that. Can we have a cite so we can see the context? It’s hard to fathom that after the convictions of the people involved that anyone would continue that line of argument. > [@Elvis](#): > > So why talk about it? So we don’t forget about it. So when it comes up again it doesn’t get met with “That’s old stuff, move on, willya?” when it isn’t old stuff. So the reflexive partisans, the self-appointed defenders of the indefensible don’t get any stronger a feeling than necessary that they’re on solid ground. So the casual readers of this forum, if not all participants, don’t think we’ve all begun to think this administration’s behavior toward “detainees” has become acceptable in any way or to any degree. I still don’t see what the debate is. This would make a good Pit thread, since no one is going to come in here and argue against the OP. I never said we should forget, just that there isn’t a debate. And you haven’t defined one either. > [@](#): > > If it makes you uncomfortable to face it and explore it, that’s your problem entirely. You can leave those of us citizens with a strong sense of ownership of, and responsibility for, our government in a democracy alone if you prefer. Never said it made me uncomfortable, I’m just pointing out that if you post a thread WITH NO DEBATABLE POINTS, don’t be surprised when someone tries to make one. The best place to “explore this” is in the Pit. That’s what that forum is for-- “exploring” acts of revulsion such as are depicted in these photos. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/49 "2006-02-15T19:16:54Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Never said it made me uncomfortable, I’m just pointing out that if you post a thread WITH NO DEBATABLE POINTS, don’t be surprised when someone tries to make one. The best place to “explore this” is in the Pit. That’s what that forum is for-- “exploring” acts of revulsion such as are depicted in these photos. But now, of course, thanks to Bricker we don’t actually know whether or not there were actually any acts of revulsion! I feel so much better. Don’t you? As for the rest, I’m looking into it. I’m sure I’ll find something soon. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/50 "2006-02-15T20:32:45Z")
My 2 cents: The OP indicates there are 15 **additional** pictures not viewed previously that support the contention there were activities that crossed the line into torture. This implies that the question is “With the previous evidence **and** this new evidence, can we all agree there was torture?” **Bricker** responded that the new pictures alone do not prove it. I believe this is an accurate statement, but not really an answer to the question in the OP. However, **Bricker** did indicate that he agrees with the general statement. While I don’t see any problem with his post, I do understand the frustration some posters may have if you focused only on the portion of his post where he says “not based solely on these photos”. A rigorous proof could not be constructed from the photos alone, but our brains don’t work that way. We are giant pattern matchers drawing on a vast amount of experience throughout our lives and we can look at a set of seemingly incomplete data and draw an accurate conclusion a high percentage of the time (a very high percentage of the time depending on the nature of the data, like facial recognition, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/51 "2006-02-15T20:39:13Z")
My 2 cents: The OP indicates there are 15 **additional** pictures not viewed previously that support the contention there were activities that crossed the line into torture. This implies that the question is “With the previous evidence **and** this new evidence, can we all agree there was torture?” **Bricker** responded that the new pictures alone do not prove it. I believe this is an accurate statement, but not really an answer to the question in the OP. However, **Bricker** did indicate that he agrees with the general statement. While I don’t see any problem with his post, I do understand the frustration some posters may have if you focused only on the portion of his post where he says “not based solely on these photos”. A rigorous proof could not be constructed from the photos alone, but our brains don’t work that way. We are giant pattern matchers drawing on a vast amount of experience throughout our lives and we can look at a set of seemingly incomplete data and draw an accurate conclusion a high percentage of the time (a very high percentage of the time depending on the nature of the data, like facial recognition, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/52 "2006-02-15T21:31:35Z")
The suggestion that the injuries happened pre-capture or during capture is possible… but in light of [the coverup at Camp Mercury](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html) **and** at [Abu Graibh](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5761936/)… well, in light of what we know that suggestion has to be taken with a grain fo salt. [ > [@](#): > > Prisoners were designated as PUCs (pronounced “pucks”)—or “persons under control.” A regular pastime at Camp Mercury, the report says, involved off-duty soldiers gathering at PUC tents, where prisoners were held, and working off their frustrations in activities known as “F\_\_\_\_a PUC” (beating the prisoner) and “Smoke a PUC” (forced physical exertion, sometimes to the point of collapse). Broken limbs and similar painful injuries would be treated with analgesics, the soldiers claim, as medical staff would fill out paperwork stating the injuries occurred during capture. ]([http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html)) [ > [@](#): > > He cites evidence that doctors or medics falsified death certificates to cover up homicides, hid evidence of beatings and revived a prisoner so he could be further tortured. No reports of abuses were initiated by medical personnel until the official investigation into Abu Ghraib began, he found. > [snip] > A military police officer reported a medic inserted an intravenous tube into the corpse of a detainee who died while being tortured to create evidence that he was alive at the hospital, Miles said. > > At prisons in both Iraq and Afghanistan, “Physicians routinely attributed detainee deaths on death certificates to heart attacks, heat stroke or natural causes without noting the unnatural (cause) of the death,” Miles wrote. > > He cites an example from a Human Rights Watch report in which soldiers tied a beaten detainee to the top of his cell door and gagged him. The death certificate indicated he died of “natural causes … during his sleep.” However, after media coverage, the Pentagon changed the cause of death to homicide by blunt force injuries and suffocation. ]([http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5761936/](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5761936/)) ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/53 "2006-02-15T21:40:53Z")
Okay, **John** , here we go. From this thread: [Revisiting the Moral Highground: Torturing Terrorism Suspects in Afghanistan](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=152667&highlight=torture) Post #6 from **RobertTB** : > [@](#): > > 1. Yes. If the people on the scene believe that Al Queda operatives are witholding information, ‘torture\*’ away. > > 2. I don’t see ‘convincing the world that we are the good guys…’ is, or should be, our goal. Preventing terrorism against US citizens is (or should be) our goal. The two sometimes call for different courses of action. > > \*What the Wash Post calls ‘torture’ is no worse then what our pilots go through in E&E courses, and various troops go through in counter-interrogation training. When we start the ole’ jumper cables on the testicles routine, then I would consider it torture. Continuing down to post #24 we find **DrDeth** stating that what was going on was absolutely not torture: > [@](#): > > Gee, again we are going to strain the definition of a word to the point where it becomes meaningless. So let’s go thru this logic, and see where the eroor comes up. 1. Civilizied people agree that “torture” is wrong. 2. Since the Post calls “stress & duress” = “torture”, it must be so, besides- it isn’t very nice. 3 Thus, what the USA is doing is uncivilized. So- I got you covered on 1, although we could quibble a lot. However- #2 is wrong, thus your logic (and conclusion) is fallacious. > > Torture is "The infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion. “Stress & duress” is not “physical pain”. “Roughing someone up during capture” is not “severe”, nor is the pain inflicted for “punishment or coercion”. The police also must inflict pain when capturing someone, and the SC hasn’t said that is “torture”- as long as the amount of pain inflicted is in line with the circumstances & needs. > > The Iraqis, and other “bad guys” in the Middle east do perform things like the “ole jumper cables on the testicles” routinely. THAT is “torture” and saying we deprive dudes of sleep= torture make the word meaningless, or trivializes the very real severe physical pain torture that is still commonly inflicted. But of course, we can’t mention the REAL torturers in the world- oh no. > > Thus, we are NOT “torturing” terrorism suspects in Afganistan. How about using some less loaded words, huh? Or does “we are not being very nice to suspected terrorists” not have the same ring to it? But, of course, he then goes on to clarify in post #27 that… > [@](#): > > Well, then listening to “gangsta rap” for me results in “distress or affect grievously”. So does 80’s “hair rock”. Or lots of things, including some posters ideas of logic. So, the new definition is “anything I really, REALLY don’t like = torture”. Indeed- a “tortured” definition. I’ll bet that OED def is not #1, right? > > And the bit about captives being beaten up (beyond what is nessesary to subdue them)? Unconfirmed. Doubtful. Prove it. …even something as small as stress positions (them pussy prisoners!) is, apparently, equivalent to 80’s “hair rock” and “gangsta rap”. Of course, the thought of The Good Guys doing anything torturous is, much like lil’ **Bricker** in this thread, completely unprovable unless it’s been notarized by a Priest, a Rabbi, and an Imam. Actually, though, **DrDeth** can remind us of a simpler, gentler time when we didn’t know better. When the evidence hadn’t been waved in our face in the form of many, many photographs of people being mistreated. But, some people seem to think that some guy will find a piece of jagged glass in his cell and tattoo “RAPEIST” onto his own ass. I mean, I’ve had that urge (except mine was “DISCO STUD”), so maybe it’s just the natural thing to do? There’s only 126 more posts in that thread if you really feel like doing some more reading. But now, let’s move on to some excitment after we’d lost our innocence regarding the “our troops wouldn’t do that!” idea. Because, once we knew all about broken glowsticks and assholes dearly departed (and certainly unlameted) **Brutus** found his way into [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=257889&highlight=gharib) and said > [@](#): > > Well, you can pick one of the two: > > 1. Fight a war using methods needed to win. > > or > > 1. Fight a war according to the various ‘rules’ out there. > The two are incompatible. The last war that we unequivocally won, WW2, was fought to win, with little thought towards various rules. If a glowstick up the ass can help fight the insurgents, then so be it. Further regarding torture, in post #24 he says > [@](#): > > It is suicidal for America to blindly follow the GCW, while the enemy is not bound by such constraints. Basically, torture away! It’s what’s for dinner! Besides, everyone else is doing it! > [@](#): > > After all, what war has ever been successfully prosecuted while strictly adhering to the GCW? Of course, for a little bit of humor (because I’ll admit that we haven’t seen any pictures from Gitmo - and I won’t even suffix with “yet”) we have someone who tries to make it sound like a good fun summer camp, just [without the s’mores!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=243677&highlight=gharib). So, **John** , I’ll admit I could probably have more and better. But, I’ve met your challenge. If the SDMB would let me search for three-letter words (abu) or there was a consistant spelling for Gharib, Garib, Gahrib, and the like, I’m sure I could do better. Besides, they do expect me to actually, you know, DO stuff here at the office. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/54 "2006-02-15T22:01:16Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > So, **John** , I’ll admit I could probably have more and better. But, I’ve met your challenge. If the SDMB would let me search for three-letter words (abu) or there was a consistant spelling for Gharib, Garib, Gahrib, and the like, I’m sure I could do better. > > Besides, they do expect me to actually, you know, DO stuff here at the office. > > -Joe It wasn’t a challenge, it was a question. And you absolutely did not answer the question, which was about A-G\*, not Afghanistan. Besides, AFAICT, those quotes are so much denying torture as saying that torture is OK in some circumstances. They may doubt whether stress positions or loud music is torture, but we’re not talking about stress positions or loud music at A-G. \*Just to be clear, A-G is short for Abu Ghraib, not Afghanstan. I hope that wasn’t a point of confusion, considering the title of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/55 "2006-02-15T22:45:13Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > It wasn’t a challenge, it was a question. > > And you absolutely did not answer the question, which was about A-G\*, not Afghanistan. Besides, AFAICT, those quotes are so much denying torture as saying that torture is OK in some circumstances. They may doubt whether stress positions or loud music is torture, but we’re not talking about stress positions or loud music at A-G. > > \*Just to be clear, A-G is short for Abu Ghraib, not Afghanstan. I hope that wasn’t a point of confusion, considering the title of this thread. Whatever, John. You and Bricker go well together. The very first quote involves a guy saying that what the people were put through “is no worse then what our pilots go through in E&E courses”. The loud music, if you’d actually read things, refers to some pinhead saying ‘various potential tortures aren’t tortures - they’re inconveniences…like when I’m forced to hear gangsta rap’. What can I say? I started with the earliest torture threads. I provided plenty. If you don’t think AfGhanistan and Abu Ghraib are comparable, that’s your problem, not mine. There appears to have been less discussion of AG than Afghanistan. I guess everyone had gotten used to American troops performing torture by that point. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/56 "2006-02-15T23:22:04Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Whatever, John. You and Bricker go well together. > > The very first quote involves a guy saying that what the people were put through “is no worse then what our pilots go through in E&E courses”. > > The loud music, if you’d actually read things, refers to some pinhead saying ‘various potential tortures aren’t tortures - they’re inconveniences…like when I’m forced to hear gangsta rap’. > > What can I say? I started with the earliest torture threads. I provided plenty. If you don’t think AfGhanistan and Abu Ghraib are comparable, that’s your problem, not mine. > > There appears to have been less discussion of AG than Afghanistan. I guess everyone had gotten used to American troops performing torture by that point. > > -Joe Your problem is that when someone says “I don’t remember” you are interpretting it as “I don’t believe you”. I was simply saying that I didn’t remember anyone on this board saying that there was no torture at Abu Ghraib. I don’t claim to have perfect memory, and I don’t claim to have read every post in every thread. I further went on to clarify that I couldn’t see how anyone could continue that line of argument after so many convictions had been handed down by the military to the guards at A-G. And, as far as this thread goes, not one person has come into it saying that there was no torture at A-G. I seriously doubt that any will. (I’d place a wager, but that would just encourage some yahoo to make me lose.) So, what point are you trying to make, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/57 "2006-02-16T11:50:38Z")
Having now seen the full set of photo’s and videos(you can find links on BoingBoing) I will say that the released material on their own does show torture and ill treatment. The pics **RT** linked to are not all of them. There are pics of a dead body with half his head gone. There is a picture of a room covered in blood (there is a section of the room show in the set linked in the OP) after a general was ‘questioned’ in there. The general is now dead surprisingly. How’s all this going down in the States? It’s headline news on all stations radio and TV all over again in Ireland and the UK from what I can see. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/58 "2006-02-16T13:34:01Z")
These new pictures are nothing new. Those who have been doing our reading know that this sort of thing has been going on. Seeing it living color simply drives it home. These military policemen have gone a very long way towards loosing this war. Because of their actions, hundreds of Americans and many thousands of Iraqis will die who need not to have died. The Army I love is in a state of indiscipline. The soldiers who did these things should be tried and hung by their necks until they are dead. Their officers, after witnessing these executions should then be treated the same. It will take a generation to rebuild the Army. The first step is to admit it needs to be rebuilt. It will be tough. These soldiers are drawn from American society. Few modern Americans have the ethical base required to be a good soldier. We must find this elite and use them to rebuild. All of this is very sad. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/59 "2006-02-16T13:40:49Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > These new pictures are nothing new. Those who have been doing our reading know that this sort of thing has been going on. Seeing it living color simply drives it home. > > These military policemen have gone a very long way towards loosing this war. Because of their actions, hundreds of Americans and many thousands of Iraqis will die who need not to have died. > > The Army I love is in a state of indiscipline. The soldiers who did these things should be tried and hung by their necks until they are dead. Their officers, after witnessing these executions should then be treated the same. > > It will take a generation to rebuild the Army. The first step is to admit it needs to be rebuilt. > > It will be tough. These soldiers are drawn from American society. Few modern Americans have the ethical base required to be a good soldier. We must find this elite and use them to rebuild. > > All of this is very sad. Most of this is quite wrong. This is not the nadir of US society. It is the apogee, at dinner all through the habitat of ruling America, glasses are raised to ‘our brave boys in Abu-Grahib’ while corporate donors discuss the funding to preserve their names and deeds in everlasting bronze. Make no mistake about it, these events are the very reason why the US is in Iraq and why your president holds office. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613/60 "2006-02-16T14:26:16Z")
What publishing of these images achieves is reminding us that a few wrist slaps on bottom-feeder thugs is not a full accounting. That remains to be done. If the USA doesn’t want this to keep blowing up in their faces then a proper accounting is needed. Most of the world does not believe the few bad apples theory. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-pics-of-hazing-at-abu-ghraib/344613.md?page=4)