# New poll shows Bush with a double digit lead **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2004, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158 "2004-09-04T23:42:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158/61 "2004-09-05T19:41:13Z")
I fear that Sen Kerry overestimates us. His vote on the resolution was nuanced and regretable. If it has any substantial failing, it is in trusting the promises of GeeDubya to exhaust every avenue before going to war. As we now know, he never had any such intention, he offered such promises only as a means to his end. Sen Kerry trusted GeeDubya, more fool him. But who is more culpable: the man who buys a “lemon” at a used car lot, or the man who sells it to him? And **laigle**? Your assault on friend **Airman** is ill advised. He has shown himself on numerous occassions to be open minded and amenable to reason. He is cantankerous and obstreperous, to be sure. But he has given no cause to believe that he favors the politics of dictatorship. He just really doesn’t like liberals. Some people don’t like puppies. What of it? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158/62 "2004-09-05T19:51:46Z")
> [@laigle](#): > > Why don’t you just skip the bullshit and move to some nice dictatorship in the Sahel? They’re more in line with your politics, and you’ll always get to jibber on about how the guys with the guns and the voing boxes have shown out another glorious victory for the ruling party. Speaking as a dedicated liberal, would you knock this sort of bullshit off? It makes us all look bad. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158/63 "2004-09-05T19:55:16Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > He just really doesn’t like liberals. Some people don’t like puppies. What of it? What’s funny is that I don’t have any problem with “liberals”, per se, I have trouble with liberal policies. ---
**Author:** ![Netbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71e660/32.png) [@Netbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Netbrian)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158/64 "2004-09-05T20:07:04Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Amen. And he doesn’t even really have to get dirty. Bush should be a sitting duck for any Dem who has the balls to go after him. Just think how much mileage Kerry could get out of the Iraq situation if he just divorced himself from having to defend his vote on the war reslution. Just say “I made a mistake” and then just skewer Bush all day long. Iraq…Deficit…Iraq…Deficit. One-two punch – knock out in the 5th round. I agree. I’d especially would like him to take the offensive far more on the status of the Iraq and Afghanistan reconstruction, and various events there. I feel Bush is very vulnerable there, but the Democrats haven’t paid nearly enough attention to the issue campaigning-wise (especially with regards to television ads). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158/65 "2004-09-05T20:15:47Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > What’s funny is that I don’t have any problem with “liberals”, per se, I have trouble with liberal policies. For now. But we’re getting to you. Nibbling away. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158/66 "2004-09-05T20:31:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Sen Kerry trusted GeeDubya, more fool him. > > But who is more culpable: the man who buys a “lemon” at a used car lot, or the man who sells it to him? As a wise man once said, “Who is more foolish: the fool, or the fool who follows him?” I don’t believe polls. Heck, I’ve yet to answer one with any degree of truthfulness; somewhere in England there’s a market researcher who thinks I make over £100,000 a year and have two children named Tarquin and Chloe. The proof of the election is in the voting. But I do agree that Kerry is going to get steamrolled if he and his fellow Democrats don’t come up with both a message and a big bucket of charisma sharpish. > [@Airman Doors](#): > > What’s funny is that I don’t have any problem with “liberals”, per se, I have trouble with liberal policies. Vote Democrat. Lord knows they haven’t been even remotely liberal since the Carter era. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158/67 "2004-09-05T22:48:23Z")
Or, as Otter told Flounder, “You fucked up! You trusted us!” ---
**Author:** ![MikeCollins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbce88/32.png) [@MikeCollins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeCollins)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158/68 "2004-09-05T23:56:02Z")
Post #28 by **mhendo** will go down in history (for me) as the day bullshit was stopped in its tracks. I salute you sir. That was a breath of fresh air on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158/69 "2004-09-06T00:10:46Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I think that maybe you, **Airman Doors** , and **Liberal** should form your own little club. You all claim you’re going to vote for Kerry, and yet each of you takes every possible opportunity to bash Kerry in particular, and liberals in general. Of course, there’s nothing inherently wrong with criticizing the person that you intend to vote for, but one expects that you would at least do it honestly rather than take constant petty pot-shots and then hide behind the your alleged intention to vote for Kerry in an attempt to deflect criticism for your disingenuous rantings and paint yourself as a moderate. At no time did I ever claim to be a liberal. Generally speaking I am against the “liberal” ideology as it is generally understood. I do not agree with most of the things that Kerry says, I do not agree with a lot of the things Kerry has done, and if the Republicans were running what I consider to be a viable candidate I would almost certainly be voting Republican. However, there has been too much that has happened in the last four years for me to vote for Bush in good conscience. That’s all there is to it. That does not make me a Kerry lover, that does not make me a Democrat, that makes me a thoughtful, conscientious voter. Don’t criticize me just because you are unable to make the leap of logic that allows me to vote for a man that I do not agree with, and a man who does not get exempted from criticism just because I have chosen to vote for him. You want my opinion of Bush? If Kerry gets elected, you will have it on January 20, 2005 at 12:01 PM. Until then I will reserve my comments to the above. But Kerry is fair game until then, and once he is inaugurated I will restrain my comments about him. Any other criticisms you have about me based upon a totally false premise? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158/70 "2004-09-06T00:14:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And **laigle**? Your assault on friend **Airman** is ill advised. He has shown himself on numerous occassions to be open minded and amenable to reason. He is cantankerous and obstreperous, to be sure. But he has given no cause to believe that he favors the politics of dictatorship. I’m going to hafta to disagree with you on this one, **'luc** – for if you open just about any thread even slighty critical of Herr Bush and Co., you’re more likely than not to find **Doors** , hunkered down, M-16 at the ready, prepared to defend The Great Misleader to the death of his enemies or his – whichever comes first. I realize Kerry is badly in need of votes, but listening to what people like **Doors** and **Lib** are saying about him – even while claiming they’ll vote for him anyway – I think they are doing him a great disservice. Price’s too high, IMHO. Might be Big Tent, by why allow it to fill with hate from the inside? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158/71 "2004-09-06T00:22:07Z")
What have I said about Kerry that is a problem? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158/72 "2004-09-06T00:24:59Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > I’m going to hafta to disagree with you on this one, **'luc** – for if you open just about any thread even slighty critical of Herr Bush and Co., you’re more likely than not to find **Doors** , hunkered down, M-16 at the ready, prepared to defend The Great Misleader to the death of his enemies or his – whichever comes first. > > I realize Kerry is badly in need of votes, but listening to what people like **Doors** and **Lib** are saying about him – even while claiming they’ll vote for him anyway – I think they are doing him a great disservice. > > Price’s too high, IMHO. Might be Big Tent, by why allow it to fill with hate from the inside? Really? My honest opinion is unwelcome? Let me put it another way: If I have the choice between a bully and a pseudo-intellectual snob to make appropriate decisions that effect my life, why would I vote for the bully, even if I agree with him on a lot of things? All he’s going to do is get me into fights. On the other hand, the pseudo-intellectual snob is completely at odds with my beliefs but I will nonetheless vote for him not because I trust him or believe in anything he says, but my conscience won’t allow me to vote for the bully. Does that mean that I have to be a rah-rah guy for him? No. He is still worthy of criticism, just as the bully is still worthy of defending from the most egregiously false criticisms. Why are you guys unable to understand that this is a question of conscience and not of ideology? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158/73 "2004-09-06T00:35:46Z")
**RedFury** , you’re out of line. **Airman** is not always in full command of the facts, perhaps, none of us is, but he never has any kind of denial problem when he finds out otherwise. He’s as straight-up and thoughtful a poster as you’ll find here, and has as much integrity as you’ll find in any man. He is most certainly not a Bush supporter at all, much less a knee-jerk one. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158/74 "2004-09-06T00:49:29Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > If I have the choice between a bully and a pseudo-intellectual snob to make appropriate decisions that effect my life, why would I vote for the bully, even if I agree with him on a lot of things? All he’s going to do is get me into fights. On the other hand, the pseudo-intellectual snob is completely at odds with my beliefs but I will nonetheless vote for him not because I trust him or believe in anything he says, but my conscience won’t allow me to vote for the bully. > > Does that mean that I have to be a rah-rah guy for him? No. He is still worthy of criticism, just as the bully is still worthy of defending from the most egregiously false criticisms. > > Why are you guys unable to understand that this is a question of conscience and not of ideology? Apart from the “agreeing with Bush on a lot of things” part, I pretty much agree with all of that (including the pseudo-intellectual snob bit, although frankly I’m one too so it probably bothers me less). And FWIW I second **Elv1s** ’s comments about you. I don’t like Kerry – he’s demonstrated the leadership ability of a damp lemon over the course of this campaign, and I think he’d be a weak and ineffectual President. But I’d still rather have him than someone I believe is actively damaging this country economically, militarily, diplomatically and indeed morally. Oh, for a rational third-party option… ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158/75 "2004-09-06T00:51:12Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **RedFury** , you’re out of line. **Airman** is not always in full command of the facts, perhaps, none of us is, but he never has any kind of denial problem when he finds out otherwise. > > He’s as straight-up and thoughtful a poster as you’ll find here, and has as much integrity as you’ll find in any man. He is most certainly not a Bush supporter at all, much less a knee-jerk one. I’ll be the first to admit that it wasn’t always that way. I used to be about as partisan as anyone around. But you know what? I took the blinders off when I realized that a) Not everything that Bush or the Republicans say or do is a good idea (in fact, most of the time they’re downright awful ideas), and b) every once in a while the Democrats have a good argument, one that’s worth investigating, even if it does turn out to be flawed or fruitless. Some of those arguments have proven to be convincing, however, for example the argument for gay marriage, which I once vehemently opposed and now support. However, I’m still living down my early days here. And so these attacks will continue from people who have only the recollection of what I was, not what I’ve become. So be it. Reputations are hard to live down, and especially mine, the hard-ass arrogant aggressive far right-wing conservative on what is largely a liberal board. Even if it’s no longer the case. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158/76 "2004-09-06T01:15:51Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > And here is my reply to Fear Itself, again in it’s entirity: > > > [@](#): > > > > Umm, Fear Itself, it seems to me that your arguement is now “Popular vote doesn’t matter, really, Kerry is ahead in the swing states, so he’ll take the election in the electorial college”. All of this is well and good, and if that’s how it plays out, then Kerry will be the next president. When Bush won that way in '00, liberals cried foul. Should Kerry win that way, I am sure they will dance in the streets. Does this strike you as hypocritical, or not > > Please tell me what part of either of those posts is “ill-informed comments” or “snide, irrelevant asides”, because I don’t see either. You seem to be responding from a biased position, making you jump all over me when i just ask a question. Tell me why, or point out the snide comments i made to Fear Itself that i missed. I don’t think your reply is particularly snide. But it is evasive. Rather than discuss the relevance of the newest poll in light of my argument and cite, you have tried to misdirect the discussion into whether or not liberals are hypocritical, and that is irrelevant. I didn’t create the system, but if it is good enough to elect Bush, it is good enough to elect Kerry. But that is not the issue your OP raised, and it is not a relevent response to my argument. I will respond as soon as I see any cogent thoughts from you that refute my argument, but so far, none has been forthcoming. When come back, bring debate. **mhendo** , thanks for the yeoman defense of my argument in my absence. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158/77 "2004-09-06T01:42:56Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > A better analogy would be the parent telling the child he can’t go swimming until an hour after a meal, because he’ll get cramps. The parent is lying but says it because they heard it from _their parents_ and pass it along as gospel. And the sad thing is, the parent believes it but doesn’t realize it’s not true. > > Sorry if this doesn’t rise to the level of “indignant verbosity” but I was fresh out. Market day is Monday night. Pardonnez moi? Hast thou taken it upon thyself to pervert my words intentionally, or was it merely a case of a reading comprehension problem? My quote you post, and in which you for some reason seemed to feel the need to insert the word [Bush] (and in brackets), was referring to _God_ as being the protector, not Bush. The reason was that the poster I was answering was of the opinion that God may allow Bush to be reelected simply to make him unhappy. My quasi-humorous post was meant as a jibe to him. You have either wrongfully or deliberately misstated my words to make it appear I said it Bush who knew what was best for this other poster. And while this may indeed be the case :D, it isn’t what I said. I would appreciate it if in the future you are going to quote me, that you do so accurately. ---
**Author:** ![JamesCarroll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@JamesCarroll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JamesCarroll)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158/78 "2004-09-06T02:02:17Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > What Kerry needs to do to somehow get of above the din of morons srcreaming that Bush is Hitler. Well then Kerry needs to distance himself from the [Democratic Party](http://www.democrats.org/security/index.html). This is just the “National Security” section. Search any of their “What’s at stake” items and you’ll find nary a mention of Kerry’s “vision”. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158/79 "2004-09-06T02:27:55Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > I’ll be the first to admit that it wasn’t always that way. I used to be about as partisan as anyone around. But you know what? I took the blinders off when I realized that a) Not everything that Bush or the Republicans say or do is a good idea (in fact, most of the time they’re downright awful ideas), and b) every once in a while the Democrats have a good argument, one that’s worth investigating, even if it does turn out to be flawed or fruitless. Some of those arguments have proven to be convincing, however, for example the argument for gay marriage, which I once vehemently opposed and now support. > > However, I’m still living down my early days here. And so these attacks will continue from people who have only the recollection of what I was, not what I’ve become. So be it. Reputations are hard to live down, and especially mine, the hard-ass arrogant aggressive far right-wing conservative on what is largely a liberal board. Even if it’s no longer the case. Good answer – and perhaps what I am guilty of. I tend to get involved with this board in fits and starts. And then mostly when there’s a particular topic of interest to me. Last such time was the Iraq Invasion Marketing Campaign, and, as you say yourself, we weren’t exactly seeing eye to eye then. From then on, I admit to not really following your posting history as I was missing most of the time anyway. Till recently that is, for the upcoming election has led me back to reading and posting to the board with some regularity. So, armed with that particular prejudice about you, and happening unto your comments on the original F-9/11 thread, I felt it was just more of the same. Fast forward to some other, random posts of yours ([such as this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5187736&postcount=83) and [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5219466&postcount=3) or even this one [upthread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5238653&postcount=52)) and the rightwing partisan image I have of you was only re-inforced. However, I now admit I may have been too hasty in responding to **elucidator’s** comment on your behalf. For after reading your own measured reply, I went on an ‘Airman Doors Hunt’ by doing a search on your recent posting history. The bad news: not such a great hunting expedition, for you do come across quite a bit more moderate than I remembered. The good news? Same. While we certainly still don’t agree on many things, I think you’ve come a long way from those referenced early days. But for now, I’ll take our similarities as opposed to our differences. Plenty of time to discuss those after November second. Hell, I might even admit to being wrong on an issue or five…which, :::shudder::: would, almost by default make you _right_ on same. But I doubt it 😉 Anyway, clean slate on my end, trust you’ll do the same at yours. With my regards to you and your obviously much smarter spouse, **Mrs Robyn**. ~Red ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158/80 "2004-09-06T02:40:26Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Pardonnez moi? Hast thou taken it upon thyself to pervert my words intentionally, or was it merely a case of a reading comprehension problem? My quote you post, and in which you for some reason seemed to feel the need to insert the word [Bush] (and in brackets), was referring to _God_ as being the protector, not Bush. Oh, admit it. You think they’re the same person. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-poll-shows-bush-with-a-double-digit-lead/263158.md?page=5)