# New Prisoner Abuse Photos: Now It's The Navy's Turn **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 4, 2004, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053 "2004-12-04T13:11:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053/141 "2004-12-08T07:44:07Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Still no sign of **Brutus.** Must be stuck in holiday traffic. Actually, his flight was delayed because the plane was missing the left wing. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053/142 "2004-12-08T11:08:38Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Bill Clinton was pushing the nation into an unnecessary war? What history books have you been reading? Bill Clinton’s presidency wasn’t exactly a pacifist utopia, **rjung**. My involvement in a conflict was in relation to the war in Yugoslavia. Now, those soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines ordered into action in this conflict were done so by a man with no combat experience himself. Point of fact, he had no military experience at all, and had used political influence to avoid service. Now, did this invalidate his ability to send me and others in to fight? How about FDR? Apart from the Civil War that was the largest conflict we’ve ever been involved in. Need I remind you that he had no active duty experience? Care to call him a chickenhawk? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053/143 "2004-12-08T15:02:53Z")
Operation Restore Hope in Somalia, conducted mostly during the Clinton administration, led to 29 American deaths, including the 18 Rangers killed in the Mogadishu firefight. 19 U.S. airmen died in the Khobar Towers bombing in 1996. 17 sailors were killed in the USS Cole bombing in 2000. 11 servicemembers were killed in combat in the former Yugoslavia and Kosovo during the Clinton administration. Now, these servicemembers were ordered to fight, as I was, by a man who avoided service himself. Now answer directly, **rjung** , do you believe Clinton had the moral authority to order these servicemembers to fight and die? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053/144 "2004-12-08T15:12:35Z")
> [@The Truth](#): > > I’ve answered a few of your questions already. > > If you mean why I am not in the military questions, then nope, I don’t reply to rude questions. Well STFU with the bring it on crap then. Really - if you’re so bloody gung-ho about it then get on out there. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053/145 "2004-12-08T15:28:21Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Operation Restore Hope in Somalia, conducted mostly during the Clinton administration, led to 29 American deaths, including the 18 Rangers killed in the Mogadishu firefight. > > 19 U.S. airmen died in the Khobar Towers bombing in 1996. > > 17 sailors were killed in the USS Cole bombing in 2000. > > 11 servicemembers were killed in combat in the former Yugoslavia and Kosovo during the Clinton administration. > > Now, these servicemembers were ordered to fight, as I was, by a man who avoided service himself. Now answer directly, **rjung** , do you believe Clinton had the moral authority to order these servicemembers to fight and die? Bush Sr. sent the troops into Somalia. They were there when Clinton took office. The Cole and Khobar had nothing to do with ordering anybody into combat. Kosovo had very minimal casualties, almost no combat and was a peace keeping mission _after a war was over_ not an invasion or an initiation of war. It was also done at the behest of the international communitity, not in defiance of it. Most importantly, Clinton did not invite terrorists to kill US troops with a numbnuts bravado statement like Bush’s. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053/146 "2004-12-08T15:31:14Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > …Now, these servicemembers were ordered to fight, as I was, by a man who avoided service himself. Now answer directly, **rjung** , do you believe Clinton had the moral authority to order these servicemembers to fight and die? **Moto** , content and context are your friends. You should visit them more. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053/147 "2004-12-08T15:43:19Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > There are some people that are simply naturally aggressive and militaristic. They are your big talkers, ‘bring it on’ ‘we’ll kick their asses’ types. They always want to be the biggest guy (or girl) in the room- if not in physical presence, then by being the most provocative person there. Yes and the point is they’re full of shit. When the chips are on the table they fold like Superman on laundry day. Over my years I’ve had several confrontations with such people, they’re the first to run when you threaten them. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053/148 "2004-12-08T15:44:50Z")
Thank you for missing the point entirely, **Diogenes**. Let me put it another way: Did Bill Clinton have the authority to lead the armed forces given his personal history? I think this chickenhawk argument is flawed on many fronts. First of all, it seems to impose a veterans status litmus test on political participation. I have argued against that for some time. Secondly, it is an argument that is a complete non-starter politically. You have to go way back to 1988 to find a presidential election where the candidate with the more distinguished military record won. Before this, it arguably happened in 1984 and again in 1972. It’s clear that nearly everybody can frame a candidate’s military service, or lack thereof, in context in a candidate’s life and then vote accordingly. Therefore, I can but assume that accusations of “chickenhawk” on these boards are merely a cheap rhetorical device substituting for actual reasoning. Have at it if you wish, but it seems profoundly silly to me. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053/149 "2004-12-08T21:01:09Z")
A little education for you, **Mr. Moto:** “Chickenhawk” does not refer to someone who leads troops during a war while not possessing military credentials himself. Indeed, one can argue that it’s a good thing the Presidency of the United States doesn’t have military service as a prerequisite, as it encourages the office-holder to try to find nonmilitary solutions to problems first. What “chickenhawk” _does_ mean is someone who doesn’t have military credentials himself, but is _all too eager_ to push for a military solution instead of a non-military one. This is especially true if the push for war includes trumped-up charges of “massive stockpiles” of WMDs, imaginary reports of “mobile chemical weapons laboratories,” and fanciful “remote-controlled drones” capable of crossing the Atlantic Ocean and attacking our shores. I leave it to you to figure out which President(s) in the last fifty years fit _that_ description. > [@holmes](#): > > **Moto,** content and context are your friends. You should visit them more. What, and risk getting a clue? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053/150 "2004-12-09T03:19:20Z")
Thanks for the clarification, **rjung**. It just confirmed what was already quite obvious, that the term is used solely to denigrate Republicans and score rhetorical points. Nice to see you so forthrightly express this point. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053/151 "2004-12-09T04:17:47Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Thanks for the clarification, **rjung**. It just confirmed what was already quite obvious, that the term is used solely to denigrate Republicans and score rhetorical points. Isn’t really quite the same as > [@rjung](#): > > What “chickenhawk” does mean is someone who doesn’t have military credentials himself, but is all too eager to push for a military solution instead of a non-military one. is it? If I state that a particular term is used to describe Presidents who are forced to resign from office after being exposed as lying crooks, it would be harsh to say that that term’s sole use is to denigrate Republicans. Chickenhawk is equally applicably to leaders whatever their party affiliation. I would have no great issue with it being used to describe Blair, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Nietzsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8dc957/32.png) [@Nietzsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nietzsche)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053/152 "2004-12-09T05:51:09Z")
I don’t know if this has already been mentioned elsewhere or not, but I think it in line with the OP. [Article](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1369658,00.html) > [@](#): > > According to the memo, prisoners arrived at the facility with bruises and burn marks on their backs, and some complained of kidney pain. One of the two interrogators also witnessed officers “punch a prisoner in the face to the point the individual needed medical attention”, the memo says. I don’t know if Task Force 6-26 is in any way affiliated with the SEAL’s that are depicted in the other recent photos. But if not, then this marks the third seperate incident of such events in prisoner detention centers. And before anyone chimes in with “why play nice with terrorists”… > [@](#): > > “It is my opinion, as an FBI agent, that were this prison on US soil, a judge would release almost every detainee for lack of evidence,” one FBI official wrote. Because they probably didn’t become terrorists until they went through this. America, you’re not helping yourself here. Why are you asking the rest of the world to help? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053/153 "2004-12-09T06:26:45Z")
It’s not _my_ fault if Republicans are the ones who love to cheer for war while leading from the rear… ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053/154 "2004-12-09T06:32:20Z")
> [@Nietzsche](#): > > I don’t know if this has already been mentioned elsewhere or not, but I think it in line with the OP. > > [Article](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1369658,00.html) [More at Guantanamo too:](http://www.airforcetimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-543169.php) > [@](#): > > In the letter obtained by The Associated Press, the FBI official suggested the Pentagon didn’t act on FBI complaints about the incidents, including a female interrogator grabbing a detainee’s genitals and bending back his thumbs, another where a prisoner was gagged with duct tape and a third where a dog was used to intimidate a detainee who later was thrown into isolation and showed signs of “extreme psychological trauma.” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053/155 "2004-12-09T11:13:32Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > It’s not _my_ fault if Republicans are the ones who love to cheer for war while leading from the rear… Does that apply to me, **rjung**? Or Donald Rumsfeld, who was a Navy fighter pilot? How about Colin Powell? I assume his military credentials aren’t suspect. How about John McCain? How about Tom Ridge? He was an Army staff sergeant in Vietnam. Your posts merely demonstrate how pathetic this labeling is. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053/156 "2004-12-09T11:50:18Z")
Just so! Let is not be distracted by this silly diversion about mistreatment of prisoners and its effect on our “cause”, when the really significant concern is the dastardly liberals and their name-calling! ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053/157 "2004-12-09T14:43:34Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Thanks for the clarification, **rjung**. It just confirmed what was already quite obvious, that the term is used solely to denigrate Republicans and score rhetorical points. > > Nice to see you so forthrightly express this point. Umm…since Libruls are all a bunch of little commie faggot pussies, why do the tough, manly, macho Righties spend so muc time playing the victim card? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053/158 "2004-12-09T17:42:24Z")
I’m no victim, **Merijeek**. I just call it like I see it. In **rjung’s** world, you have to go with the war hero over the guy who didn’t serve. Unless that war hero was running against Bill Clinton, because everybody knows he’s a special case. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Nietzsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8dc957/32.png) [@Nietzsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nietzsche)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053/159 "2004-12-09T17:56:45Z")
**Mr Moto** : > [@](#): > > How about Colin Powell? > How about John McCain? Funny how the two you choose to reference are precisely the two Republicans who did absolutely _zero_ cheering for this conundrum whatsoever. In fact, they could as best be considered begrudgingly toeing the party line. I can’t speak for **rjung** specifically, but I believe he was referring to the actual cheerleading folks like Bush, Cheney, Wolfoshitz, and Scooter Libby. > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Does that apply to me, **rjung**? No offence, but this shtick is getting tiresome. Not every comment made is a reference to you directly. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053/160 "2004-12-09T18:08:02Z")
Why not? By your standards I’m a cheerleader for the war. I think you all know that casting such a label my way would be somewhat inappropriate. The problem, though, is that others who did not serve have the same right I do to hold that view. I don’t get any special political status simply because I’m a veteran. Therefore, slapping the chickenhawk on these folks seems inappropriate as well. Call **The Truth** misguided, a warmonger, whatever. Just law off the chickenhawk shit. It’s tremendously tiresome. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-prisoner-abuse-photos-now-its-the-navys-turn/278053.md?page=7)