# New reality TV show - Men unknowingly date drag queen? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 3, 2004, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295 "2004-05-03T16:42:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/21 "2004-05-04T06:26:20Z")
That’s what pisses me off the most-many articles refer to Miriam as ‘a man’ or ‘born a man’. No a mtf transexual is born with a penis and testicles. This no more makes her a man than being born with steel-belted radials would make her a buick. She is, however, a bitch. Joe Millionare was bad. However, men already have a reputation as being brainless pigs, and being roughly half the world’s population are able to defend themselves. Big Fat Fiancee was bad. However, we all knew that Fox was a sleazy corporation willing to do just about anything for money. Something About Miriam is certain to give people incorrect assumptions about transexuals, and possibly lead to violence against them. As there aren’t many transexuals, and a large percentage of transexuals prefer to keep it secret, they won’t be able to educate the public effectively or defend themselves. Do a search on Brandon Tina. Miriam seems to find spreding misinformation and making the lives of other transexuals more dangerous acceptable, as long as she gets paid. The question of when to tell a boyfriend that you’re a preop is a GD thread of its own. But the correct answer is not ‘on a reality show designed to make him appear foolish’ I’d like to close this post by summing up my feelings about Miriam, but am unable to do so in a way that would be acceptable outside the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/22 "2004-05-04T07:18:40Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > And why, exactly, was Alexander’s day “Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad?” Explain, please. Are you kidding me? I’m about as gay friendly as it gets. And that includes transgenders, transsexuals, and anyone else that does ANYTHING as long as it doesn’t hurt other people. But if you trick me into chasing a lady with a hog up her skirt -ESPECIALLY on national tv- I’d have to say I’d have a Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day. Why is that at all hard to understand? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/23 "2004-05-04T08:12:12Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Something About Miriam is certain to give people incorrect assumptions about transexuals, and possibly lead to violence against them. Not to bring down anyone’s wrath and just to play devil’s advocate for a moment, if every show that carried with it the chance of possibly leading to violence against someone were pulled off the air there’d be little television left. One may or may not consider that to be a good thing. > [@](#): > > Do a search on Brandon Tina. It’s “Teena.” > [@](#): > > Miriam seems to find spreding misinformation and making the lives of other transexuals more dangerous acceptable, as long as she gets paid. I’m curious as to what misinformation she’s spread about transpeople. I looked over both cites from the OP and, unless Miriam wrote the copy for the official site in which she’s referred to as a “man” and a “half and half,” I don’t see it. > [@](#): > > The question of when to tell a boyfriend that you’re a preop is a GD thread of its own. But the correct answer is not ‘on a reality show designed to make him appear foolish’ Meh. This isn’t any worse that Joe Millionaire or Boy Meets Boy or Playing it Straight or any of the other deception shows. These twist gimmicks have been around long enough that I’m pretty much at the point where anyone in a country that has television who’s foolish enough to go on one pretty much gets what he deserves. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/24 "2004-05-04T10:23:58Z")
Whatever happened on Playing It Straight? We apparently missed the last few episodes or else it just disappeared. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lodoen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b3f665/32.png) [@Jeff\_Lodoen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lodoen)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/25 "2004-05-04T11:04:56Z")
> [@Libertarian](#): > > Whatever happened on Playing It Straight? We apparently missed the last few episodes or else it just disappeared. It was pulled. I read the ratings stunk. It will probably be shown in the summer. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/26 "2004-05-04T12:59:24Z")
It appears Miriam enjoys being controversial: > [@](#): > > **Miriam Opts Out Of Op** > > Miriam’s perfectly happy with who she is and has declared that she’s got no plans to go for the chop that would make her all woman. > > “I think it’s such a huge decision and you have to be prepared for the whole process,” the Latina lovey said. > > "My mother always says to me, ‘Why would you want to be half-and-half? Why don’t you want to be a complete woman?’ > > “But I just love myself and I’m really enjoying my life. I’m simply not ready for it,” she told New! magazine. > > Miriam also stressed that she’s into “men only”. “I’m not a lesbian,” she said, “That would make me straight!” From [here](http://www.skyone.co.uk/programmes/features.asp?fID=Miriam%20no%20op%2020040224&prog=21&title=miriam). ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/27 "2004-05-04T13:01:23Z")
**Otto** , I’m surprised at you—this _is_ “worse than _Joe Millionaire_ or _Boy Meets Boy_ or _Playing it Straight_ or any of the other deception shows.” It holds transsexuals up as objects of ridicule, as freaks that you might be “tricked” into dating, much to your disgust and horror (“Oh, my god—I must be a faggot, if I was attracted to _that!_”). And, **Cisco** , no _lady_ would run with a hog up her skirt. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/28 "2004-05-04T13:21:34Z")
> [@](#): > > . . . Well, maybe not to that transsexual who climbed a tree in Central Park, had nekkid sex and demanded Vanilla Pepsi . . . Vanilla Pepsi? Ewwwwwwww! ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/29 "2004-05-04T13:31:38Z")
Worse, man. **DIET** Vanilla Pepsi, as I recall. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/30 "2004-05-04T13:33:08Z")
> [@ava](#): > > But see, Miriam is of the correct gender for these guys. Miriam identifies as a straight female, therefore she only wants to date straight males and only straight males would be attracted to her. Futhermore, the winner keeps refering to Miriam as “she” and “her” even after learning that she was born a man, somethign that shows that even the men who were tricked identify her as a woman. That doesn’t mean they identify her as a woman, in the sense that they’re attracted to women. Remember, just as Miriam is allowed to define her gender and sexual preferences for herself, these guys are allowed to define their gender and sexual preferences for themselves. I’m sure nobody would dispute this right. They may call Miriam “she” as a sign of basic courtesy (respecting how she defines her gender); they may call her “she” because that’s what they’re used to calling her; they may call her “she” because she looks female. None of that implies that she’s in the category of people that these guys self-identify as being attracted to. > [@](#): > > From the articles I’ve read where they interview the men who were in the contest, most of them say that they are angry because they feel they were lied to. Well, exactly–but they were lied to about something far more intimate than whether Miriam comes from old money or whatever. > [@](#): > > I think they purposefully picked very homophobic/anti-transsexual men for this show. In my own experience, I know many guys that can pass for girls. One of these, my ex-boyfriend, is transgendered but not transsexual. Many straight men hit on him thinking that is a girl and are shocked when they know the truth. However, most of them either laugh it off or **still hit on him.** Then again, maybe we have just been blessed in the type of people we’ve encountered. Hey, that’s great. Personally, while I’m flattered when gay men hit on me (assuming they’re not creepy), it would probably freak me out a little to discover that I’d been hitting on a woman who’d been born with exterior plumbing. I’m happy for transsexuals who find wonderful, loving, fulfilling relationships, just like I’m happy for everyone that finds them. But that’s not how my own sexuality works. I don’t think that makes me homophobic, any more than a lesbian who doesn’t like straight men hitting on her is heterophobic. It’s just the way we’re wired. Of course, I’ve not seen the show. If the guys, on finding out about Miriam, make disparaging comments about transgendered folks in general, that’s definitely uncool. Miriam may be an ass, but that doesn’t reflect on transgendered folks any more than it reflects on British folks. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/31 "2004-05-04T13:45:25Z")
Didn’t a scenario similar to this result in one of the people getting killed in Michigan a few years ago. If I remember right, it was a bit on the _Jerry Springer Show_. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/32 "2004-05-04T13:48:51Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > . . . it would probably freak me out a little to discover that I’d been hitting on a woman who’d been born with exterior plumbing. I’m happy for transsexuals who find wonderful, loving, fulfilling relationships, just like I’m happy for everyone that finds them. But that’s not how my own sexuality works. I don’t think that makes me homophobic . . . No, that just makes you like 99.95% of the straight men in the world . . . Which is why transsexuals very, very rarely find “wonderful, loving, fulfilling relationships.” And deranged camera-whores like Miriam and the Vanilla Pepsi Lady ain’t helping matters any. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/33 "2004-05-04T14:31:32Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Didn’t a scenario similar to this result in one of the people getting killed in Michigan a few years ago. If I remember right, it was a bit on the _Jerry Springer Show_. That scenario was way different: Guy goes on the _Jerry Springer Show_, being told that he’s got a secret admirer at work. Guy is single and is looking forward to finding out which of the ladies he works with has a crush on him. On the show, they bring out the Guy’s secret admirer onto the stage with him. _It’s another man!_ (_Gasp_! Horrors!) Guy is so distraught over having a man attracted to him that a day or two later, he kills **himself.** ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/34 "2004-05-04T14:54:18Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > No, that just makes you like 99.95% of the straight men in the world . . . Which is why transsexuals very, very rarely find “wonderful, loving, fulfilling relationships.” And that sucks, and I wish that weren’t the case. I realized as a teenager, however, that my sexual preference/identity wasn’t a matter of conscious choice, and that it was impervious to appeals from reason. I rather suspect most people are the same way. It makes no more sense to blame straight guys for not being attracted to transsexual women than it makes sense to blame transsexual women for not being happy with their bodies the way they are. Not that you’re blaming anyone, and I apologize if I’m coming across as defensive; I do see that it’s a shitty situation. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![oioithatsyerlot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9d8465/32.png) [@oioithatsyerlot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oioithatsyerlot)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/35 "2004-05-04T14:55:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Guy is so distraught over having a man attracted to him that a day or two later, he kills himself. Not quite. He actually killed the gay man who had the crush. [CNN Story Here.](http://www.cnn.com/US/9908/26/talkshow.slaying.02/) ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/36 "2004-05-04T14:57:28Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > That scenario was way different: > > Guy goes on the _Jerry Springer Show_, being told that he’s got a secret admirer at work. Guy is single and is looking forward to finding out which of the ladies he works with has a crush on him. On the show, they bring out the Guy’s secret admirer onto the stage with him. _It’s another man!_ (_Gasp_! Horrors!) Guy is so distraught over having a man attracted to him that a day or two later, he kills **himself.** I won’t say there wasn’t such a Springer show & outcome BUT the major court case a couple of years ago was over the Jenny Jones show pulling the same thing & the straight male crushee ended up killing the gay male crusher. The victim’s family btw claimed they did hook up & the killer was full of self-loathing over it & killed the guy as a result. No idea if that was verified. He did get convicted & I think a life sentence. There was some attempt to hold JJ & the show’s producers responsible to some extent but I think that fell through. I always thought a better outcome would have been the guy going after JJ & Co (not kill or harm them, just scare them a bit). ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/37 "2004-05-04T15:05:54Z")
Thanks for the correction, it was Jenny Jones instead of Springer’s show. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/38 "2004-05-04T15:06:37Z")
IIRC It was not Jerry Springer but Jenny Jones. There was at least one lawsuit and that episode never aired. **Otto** I’m not saying all entertainment should be altered so nobody gets pissed off at anybody. But this whole show is based on a transexual deceiving men and focuses on the idea that she is some kind of freak. **Eve** I need your help here, comparisons to Birth Of A Nation and Triumph Of The Will don’t quite seem justified. Again, when an mtf should tell a man that she is a transexual, is a debate on its own. Too early and, as **Eve** has said you’ll be looking at a cloud of dust and a boyfriend-shaped hole in the wall. Too late, and he may feel lied to and tricked. This can lead to great anger and possibly violence. But, telling him on a reality show built around the premise, ensures a negative reaction. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/39 "2004-05-04T15:07:32Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > it would probably freak me out a little to discover that I’d been hitting on a woman who’d been born with exterior plumbing. Okay, personal story time: In 1994, after having gone through a year-long dry spell (which was a long period at the time but would be a drop in the bucket for me today), I finally found a woman who wanted to date me. She seemed a little bit matronly, but there was nothing else out of the ordinary about her. She was also a nice kisser. We had a good time together and soon went over to my place. As we got more intimate, and I was sliding in toward 3rd base, so to speak, she said, “We really have to talk.” She was uneasy about the subject at first, but eventually got around to telling me that she was an intersex person (a hermaphrodite) who’d been raised as a male and had realized she was female-identified only recently. She had ovaries, fallopian tubes, a uterus, a cervix, a _scrotum_, one undescended and one partially descended pseudo-testicle, and a small penis-like phallus which, when she was sexually aroused, emitted vaginal lubricant. Because she’d been living as a man previously, she was going through the standard transexual Real-Life Trial of living as a woman before she could get sex-reassignment surgery. What was my biggest disappointment at that juncture? That she was pre-op. That she didn’t have a vagina. It meant that we couldn’t have intercourse, which to me is centrally important to any romantic relationship I’m in. But it didn’t end there. You see, I was her very first boyfriend. A year earlier, before she’d started taking estrogen, she thought she’d end up as a lesbian after surgery because she wasn’t attracted to men. The estrogen had transformed more than just her physique; she had started “noticing” men a few months earlier. But she was totally unprepared for the strength of the feelings she had for me when I first kissed her. She was scared of losing that, which was one of the reasons why she avoided telling me about her unusual plumbing situation until the moment when I was about to have found out anyway. It would have devastated her if the first man she’d gotten romantic with dumped her because she wasn’t a complete woman – so to make sure that didn’t happen, she unzipped my pants, reached in and pulled out my **own** plumbing, and got down on her knees to pleasure me. For a brief instant on her way down, she suddenly looked to me like Scott Collins from 9th grade. You don’t know him. Never mind who he is. The point is, he was a **boy**. A woman who looked (even if just for an instant) like a boy, and who had previously **been** a boy, and whose description of her external genitalia was more male-like than female-like, was about to get **extremely** intimate with my own genitalia. I was damn scared. But I also knew **exactly** how much it would hurt her if I turned her down, having felt the hammer-blows of rejection myself so often in the past. And I was desperately lonely, and craved the love of a woman more than words can say. Here on this alien shore, I had to sort through my feelings and decide – in the space of a couple of seconds – whether to let her continue. I had to become secure in my sexuality **really** fast. We stayed together and dated for another 6 months after this. Eventually, I broke up with her – not because of her plumbing, although her lack of a vagina centainly didn’t help things, but because she was a total flake who continually stood me up for our dates. (She always had an excuse and was terribly apologetic, but there are only so many broken promises a man can put up with.) After she stood me up 3 times in a row, that was it. > [@](#): > > Miriam may be an ass, but that doesn’t reflect on transgendered folks any more than it reflects on British folks. Except in Britain, they’re not called “folks,” they’re called “biscuits” or something. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/40 "2004-05-04T15:17:10Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > Okay, personal story time: Very interesting story–thanks for telling it! Truth be told, I don’t know HOW I would’ve responded if, during my single days, I’d found myself attracted to someone who wasn’t (in my own personal gender taxonomy) female. It sounds like you handled it in an ideal fashion. Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295.md?page=3)