# New reality TV show - Men unknowingly date drag queen? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 3, 2004, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295 "2004-05-03T16:42:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/41 "2004-05-04T15:27:34Z")
Don’t forget, she didn’t let me know about her situation until we were already well past Second Base. I had a bit of an emotional investment in her by this point. To be honest, if she had let me know from the outset, I probably wouldn’t have dated her. It seems her decision **not** to let me know up front worked in her favor, in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/42 "2004-05-04T21:29:10Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > It seems her decision **not** to let me know up front worked in her favor, in this case. Interesting point. I value honesty a lot, and I’m not sure, again, how I would’ve responded. Recognizing that het transsexuals are in a difficult position when dating, vaguely akin to the herpes-positive folks (vaguely, I say, vaguely!), I guess I can see how a little bit of reticence would be the best strategy. At the same time, a significant part of dating is figuring out whether the other person is one you’d want to get romantically/sexually involved with; it seems a little unfair to hold back such a potentially significant bit of information from your date until such an emotionally-charged moment. And then again, maybe it’s not: given that a person’s sexual identity is pretty tied up in their hormones anyway, maybe it’s fair play to give them the information when their hormones will, uh, lubricate their decision. Sounds like a question for the Ethicist. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/43 "2004-05-04T22:45:48Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > IIRC It was not Jerry Springer but Jenny Jones. [You don’t recall correctly](http://www.cnn.com/US/9602/talk_shows/talk_show_slayings/). ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/44 "2004-05-04T22:45:48Z")
I believe the phrase “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” applies here. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/45 "2004-05-05T00:06:20Z")
> [@Jeff Olsen](#): > > [You don’t recall correctly](http://www.cnn.com/US/9602/talk_shows/talk_show_slayings/). Um … that link says is **was** on Jenny Jones, not Jerry Springer. (And that the distraught man killed the gay guy who was interested in him, not himself. Did a similar scenario play itself out on the Jerry Springer show, or did somebody just give me the story wrong when I heard it?) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/46 "2004-05-05T00:37:47Z")
My apologies. Had my **Cathode** reversed. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GingerOfTheNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/cdc98d/32.png) [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/47 "2004-05-05T00:41:32Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > That’s what pisses me off the most-many articles refer to Miriam as ‘a man’ or ‘born a man’. No a mtf transexual is born with a penis and testicles. This no more makes her a man than being born with steel-belted radials would make her a buick. I love this analogy. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/48 "2004-05-05T02:41:24Z")
> [@Jeff Olsen](#): > > My apologies. Had my **Cathode** reversed. 🙂 This explains why I’ve felt so burnt out today. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/49 "2004-05-05T05:35:41Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > This no more makes her a man than being born with steel-belted radials would make her a buick. However, that big General Motors logo on the inside of her front door is another matter. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/50 "2004-05-05T12:57:19Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > I believe the phrase “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” applies here. I see what you mean. Like I said, I value honesty in a relationship, but I hadn’t really thought about this issue very strongly before; **tracer’s** story and your experiences have given me food for thought. Daniel recognizing that for him it’s an academic exercise and not a fundamental life dilemma, so he doesn’t really get much of a say in it anyway ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/51 "2004-05-05T13:20:18Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I see what you mean. Like I said, I value honesty in a relationship, but I hadn’t really thought about this issue very strongly before; **tracer’s** story and your experiences have given me food for thought. A forced policy of immediate disclosure, as **The Unnamed One** wanted to force on us before he was banned, effectively prevents straight MTF transsexuals from dating at all (unless, of course, they want to turn dating into a form of Russian roulette). The belief that having sex with (or being attracted to) a post-op MTF makes you gay is the direct combination of raving ignorance regarding transsexuals and internalized homophobia. I’m not willing to bend the rules in favor of people who maintain such beliefs. Transsexuals shouldn’t have to put up with it, and I refuse to hold any transsexual (pre or post op) who defers disclosure until “third base” culpable in any way until such time as open disclosure at an earlier time doesn’t risk a potentially deadly reaction. Nor am I responsible if someone finds me attractive when his stuck-up notions of gender mandate that he’s not allowed to be attracted to me. That’s not **my** problem. Why should I be denied the opportunity to search for a life companion, just to protect some other guy’s ill-formed notions of who he would like to consider himself attracted to? ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/52 "2004-05-05T13:44:19Z")
> [@KellyM](#): > > A forced policy of immediate disclosure, as **The Unnamed One** wanted to force on us before he was banned, effectively prevents straight MTF transsexuals from dating at all (unless, of course, they want to turn dating into a form of Russian roulette). Unless you want to go to one of those message boards for people who are _only_ attracted to transsexuals, which I find just as creepy. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/53 "2004-05-05T14:08:09Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > Don’t forget, she didn’t let me know about her situation until we were already well past Second Base. I had a bit of an emotional investment in her by this point. To be honest, if she had let me know from the outset, I probably wouldn’t have dated her. It seems her decision **not** to let me know up front worked in her favor, in this case. I dated a boy who was actually a girl. I found out while making out at the movies. We dated for a while afterward, but eventually we broke up. I don’t even know why…probably because I was so young (15 or so). The dishonesty was a bit of a drag, but understandable. He was a few years older than me. We hung in the same group for quite a while, and then he disappeared. I never did hear about him after that. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/54 "2004-05-05T14:30:44Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > The dishonesty was a bit of a drag, _suppressed snicker at the obvious pun_ ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/55 "2004-05-05T14:48:31Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > _suppressed snicker at the obvious pun_ I didn’t even realize I did it. Heh. Sometimes I crack myself up! ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/56 "2004-05-05T15:08:48Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Unless you want to go to one of those message boards for people who are _only_ attracted to transsexuals, which I find just as creepy. Ew. I’ve run into a few of those _perverts_. It is an experience I should not care to repeat. I don’t understand what makes transsexuals so attractive to some guy. Is it the fact that there’s no risk of getting us pregnant? Is it the fact that we tend to be vulnerable and therefore easier to manipulate? Or is it the illicit thrill of having secret mansex without any of your friends really knowing? There are times that I’m just infinitely happy that I’m a lesbian. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/57 "2004-05-05T15:41:57Z")
> [@KellyM](#): > > The belief that having sex with (or being attracted to) a post-op MTF makes you gay is the direct combination of raving ignorance regarding transsexuals and internalized homophobia. I’m not willing to bend the rules in favor of people who maintain such beliefs. I guess I disagree with a lot of this. While I absolutely respect how any person defines their gender in almost all circumstances, sex and courtship is one area in which their definition doesn’t reign supreme. Both partners in courtship are likely to have idiosyncratic ideas about gender and sex, and if these idiosyncratic ideas don’t mesh, then the courtship is unlikely to be fruitful. Just as it’s not internalized homophobia for a man not to be attracted to other men, it’s not internalized homophobia for a man not to be attracted to a MTF transsexual. There ARE no morals in who you’re attracted to, or how you set the limits on who you’re attracted to. It’s not racism to be attracted only to Jewish people; it’s not even racism to break off a relationship if you find out your partner isn’t really Jewish, despite their excellent Hebrew and their David’s Star pendant. People get to make whatever decisions they want about potential bedmates. In other words, there ARE no rules that require bending when dealing with courting behavior, except POSSIBLY the need for both honesty and compassion. Where it becomes unethical is if these idiosyncratic ideas extend beyond the courting. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/58 "2004-05-05T16:02:43Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Just as it’s not internalized homophobia for a man not to be attracted to other men, it’s not internalized homophobia for a man not to be attracted to a MTF transsexual. If you weren’t attracted to the individual, then you wouldn’t be at third base, now, would you? This isn’t a case about being attracted or not attracted to transsexuals. People who find themselves in this situation **clearly are** attracted to transsexuals (or they wouldn’t be contemplating sex with them). They’re just mentally uncomfortable with that fact. And that mental discomfort is the result of internalized homophobia. If you just weren’t attracted to transsexuals, then you’d go “Gee, she’s good looking. Why am I not attracted to her?” That’s not what happens. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/59 "2004-05-05T16:12:13Z")
> [@KellyM](#): > > This isn’t a case about being attracted or not attracted to transsexuals. People who find themselves in this situation **clearly are** attracted to transsexuals (or they wouldn’t be contemplating sex with them). They’re just mentally uncomfortable with that fact. And that mental discomfort is the result of internalized homophobia. > > If you just weren’t attracted to transsexuals, then you’d go “Gee, she’s good looking. Why am I not attracted to her?” That’s not what happens. Hmm. Maybe I mean something different from “homophobia” from what you mean. Like I said, people are allowed to make whatever weird and kinky and irrational decisions they want when it comes to romantic partners, for whatever reason they want. If they’re mentally uncomfortable with the fact that they’re attracted to transsexuals, that’s their business, and it’s legitimate for them to use that, along with any other criteria they want, to choose whom to be involved with. Being an asshole about it, of course, wouldn’t be legit. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295/60 "2004-05-05T16:57:50Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Hmm. Maybe I mean something different from “homophobia” from what you mean. Like I said, people are allowed to make whatever weird and kinky and irrational decisions they want when it comes to romantic partners, for whatever reason they want. If they’re mentally uncomfortable with the fact that they’re attracted to transsexuals, that’s their business, and it’s legitimate for them to use that, along with any other criteria they want, to choose whom to be involved with. But that’s not what you’re defending. You seem to be defending the position that because some people have such hangups, all transsexuals should disclose their status early so as to protect people who have such hangups. And I don’t think that’s defensible. If you have hangups about who you’re willing to allow yourself be attracted to, it’s your responsibility to ensure that the targets of your lust don’t conflict with those hangups. It’s not the responsibility of whomever you lust after. Expecting them to know what your hangups are in advance is “being an asshole about it”. You tried a while back to compare the obligation of disclosure for a transsexual with that borne by those who are herpes-positive. That’s actually a pretty insulting comparison. Warning your potential sexual partners that you have herpes is obligated upon you because not warning them endangers their health. There’s no disease that you can catch from having sex with a transsexual. In any case, the constructed deception of the program discussed in the OP is beyond the pale. It’s one thing to date people because you want companionship; quite another to do so because you enjoy shocking them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-reality-tv-show-men-unknowingly-date-drag-queen/243295.md?page=4)