# New rule: shut the fuck up about Bush **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 16, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125 "2005-05-16T20:29:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125/201 "2005-05-18T19:42:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because **rjung** is not the only Johnny One-Note on the SDMB. Hey, you’re welcome to turn in your Lifetime Membership Card[sup]TM[/sup] any time you want. Of course, that means you won’t get the 50% discount at Denny’s any more, and we know how much you _love_ their Grand Slam breakfasts… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125/202 "2005-05-18T19:47:28Z")
First off, when I say “it seems like”, is not putting words in your mouth. Had I left out the word “seems”, then yes, I would be quite guilty off what you accuse me of, but I am not, in reality, so STFU. Secondly, while you are claiming that **RedFury** “get’s all his information from lunatic fringe lefty websites”, which last time I checked was not a valid criticssm, do want to actually answer more themn one of his poits? For example, the one where he asks about your willingness to live in Iraq now, or after the first war. Third, in Tom’s example, he shows that Saddam is no longer engaged in large scal killings. There are many dictatiors who kill their own men. Shall we go out and have badley plaaned and executed campaigns againsnt them too, or should we streetch our forces much thin? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125/203 "2005-05-18T22:07:43Z")
Thanks for the cite, **tomndebb**. I had a reply all ready for you, but I see others have already made the point I was about to make, which is that Hussein and his henchmen would not have had to be killing people at wartime rates in order to be murdering or otherwise causing the deaths of more Iraqis than are dying now as a result of our action there. I believe **Weirddave’s** assertion was that Hussein was killing Iraqis at a greater pace than exists now, and I felt that to say that wasn’t the case because he wasn’t killing at wartime levels was a bit of a red herring (unintentional though it may have been). Anyway, thanks again for the cite. I appreciate your taking the time to find and post it. Regards, SA ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125/204 "2005-05-18T22:10:25Z")
> [@](#): > > **Starving Artist** …It also includes deaths caused by insurgents fighting (or rather, murdering innocent civilians) in order to keep Iraq from freedom and democracy. Keep in mind that many or most of those insurgents are also Iraqis. They don’t trust democracy – just as some Americans no longer think that democracy is actually being allowed to function in this country. They see themselves as freedom fighters for what they think is right. You and I both may disagree with them. The world might be a better place if each side tried to see the other’s point of view – even when we know that we cannot embrace it. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125/205 "2005-05-18T23:17:54Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Well, considering the guy _is_ the President of the world’s sole superpower, it’s kinda hard _not_ to talk about him when discussing current events, politics, and stuff of that nature. Though I’d gladly chip in for a fund to help Bush migrate to a career with fewer responsibilities, if there’s a hat going around… > > (I’ve always said George would make a great greeter at Wal-Mart) Oh, so this thread is about current events. I thought you were being pitted. The things you learn on the SDMB… ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125/206 "2005-05-18T23:19:07Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Secondly, while you are claiming that **RedFury** “get’s all his information from lunatic fringe lefty websites”, which last time I checked was not a valid criticssm, It’s not? Shall I take it then that you and your ilk will stop using Fox News as a pejorative? Because, you know, one’s source for news isn’t a valid criticism, right? In any event, the claim that he was making, that the war was “illegal” because of that clause in the Constitution, is one that you only see amongst the lunatic fringe of the anti-war crowd. Anyone with a lick of sense in their head knows that the Constitution says no such thing. > [@Scott Plaid](#): > > For example, the one where he asks about your willingness to live in Iraq now, or after the first war. Now. In a fucking heartbeat. > [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Third, in Tom’s example, he shows that Saddam is no longer engaged in large scal killings. So, what’s the statue of limitations, huh? “Oh, it’s been years since he massacred Kurds with WMDs, decades even, do you have to keep throwing that in his face?” Fuck yes I do. Tell me, what exactly was preventing Sadaam from murdering any number of people anytime he wanted before the war? Did he find Jesus? Convert to Scientology? Would you be willing to bet your LIFE on Sadaam’s good graces? > [@Scott Plaid](#): > > There are many dictatiors who kill their own men. Shall we go out and have badley plaaned and executed campaigns againsnt them too, or should we streetch our forces much thin? I don’t advocate a poorly planned anything, nor do I think extending our military commitments at this time is wise or even possible, but I have no problem with taking out every tinpot dictator in the entire world at the point of a gun and installing democracies instead. It wouldn’t bother me a bit. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125/207 "2005-05-19T00:22:51Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Oh, so this thread is about current events. I thought you were being pitted. Nah, we jumped _that_ rail back on page 2. I’m thinking of starting a pool to see what topic this thread will migrate to next. ---
**Author:** ![Floyd13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@Floyd13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floyd13)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125/208 "2005-05-19T02:36:31Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > I don’t advocate a poorly planned anything, nor do I think extending our military commitments at this time is wise or even possible, but I have no problem with taking out every tinpot dictator in the entire world at the point of a gun and installing democracies instead. It wouldn’t bother me a bit. So then…which country you headed to first? Oh that’s right, you meant OTHER people should go and fight against all these evil dictators. I wish cons weren’t such pussies who talk a big game and then expect me to do the dirty work. Go over there and risk YOUR life for some random democracy. Be my guest. With any luck, all the fucking moronic cons will leave and let us turn our country back into a tolerant and enjoyable place to live. \ ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125/209 "2005-05-19T02:41:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Since Sadaam hasn’t engaged in mass murder in a while, we should discount the fact that he has demonstrated a propensity to do so? Since, in the years leading up to our invasion, Hussein was not actively killing more people per month than are currently dying, then it is a falsehood to claim that he was killing more people per month than are currently dying. Just a matter of the Straight Dope and all that. There are enough opinions and exaggerations among your posts and **RedFury** ’s (and those of nearly every other poster in this thread) to keep us here for another decade atempting to identify the “real facts” and I have noticed several errors on each side. Your particular claim, however, was a vehemently posted falsehood and I challenged it. If the removal of Hussein was so necessary that we could ignore international law, then our reasons should be able to stand on honest appraisals, not falsehoods. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125/210 "2005-05-19T03:05:39Z")
Tom, since the purpose of this thread is to fight ignorance, could you post the errors made by **anyone** , and I do mean on my, (and I assume, your) side of the arguement in this case? You know, the ones you just mentioned? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125/211 "2005-05-19T03:27:43Z")
Nope. We have, as noted above, been over all this before. I’m not going to launch a hijack that I have already indicated would last a decade to resolve. And, of course, what I perceive as a clear error is going to prompt someone else to describe with just enough spin to make the whole thing one of interpretation all over again. As an example of “facts” that no one will agree to, look at any discussion of the death toll reported in _The Lancet_. Long before we get to trying to figure out whether there have “really” been over 100,000 “excess” deaths, we have to climb a mountain of statistical sampling methods, the validity of such methods, and whether such methods were genuinely used to arrive at a legitimate conclusion. My personal view, based on readings of commentaries, not on my own statistical analysis, is that the protocols that were established were legitimate and were carried out in good faith by the workers involved, but that field modifications forced onto the field teams by on-the-ground events resulted in a severly hamstrung effort and I do not accept the 100,000 figure. But proponents and opponents of the study do not even have to support or oppose the U.S. invasion to come to bloody blows over the legitimacy and accuracy of the methodology and the results. My reaction to **Weirddave** ’s statement was based on my perception that it is one of the errors identifiable with a bright stripe. Most of the other errors that I perceive clearly will be seen by others (on both sides) as faulty vision on my part. Say, isn’t someone due to bash **rjung** about now? It’s his thread, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125/212 "2005-05-19T03:45:42Z")
You know I respect you, **tomndeb** , but I just read through the information you linked to and I still don’t see anything resembling concrete evidence that the rate of Iraqi deaths under Hussein was less than it is now. The fact that this particular writer averaged Iraqi deaths over a number of decades in no way proves that fewer (innocent) people were dying under Hussein than are dying now. And, of course, as I said earlier, it is a virtual certainty that many more lives will be saved as time goes by and things in Iraq stabilize. In other words, far fewer innocent Iraqis will die over the next decades (assuming Iraq does indeed become a stable self-governing democracy, which only time will tell) than would have been the case had Hussein and his despicable progeny continued to rule Iraq. **Zoe** …yes, I know some of the insurgents regard themselves as freedom fighters. But they are fighting and trying to kill our soldiers, and they are deliberately targeting innocent Iraqis in an effort to destabilize attempts to create a viable government there. To me, this makes them enemy combatants and terrorists. (I would imagine that in just about every war the combatants on each side feel they are the ones with the greater moral imperative.) Therefore, I don’t believe they should be counted among the “innocent” Iraqis that have been killed as a result of the war. It is still my contention that fewer Iraqis are dying now than under Hussein, and that many, many fewer will die as time goes by. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125/213 "2005-05-19T03:49:36Z")
Sorry, **tom** , your last post came in as I was composing mine. It isn’t my intention to participate in a hijack when the thread is attempting to get back on topic. If you want to just agree that we disagree that would be fine with me, and unless I hear otherwise I’ll just let the subject drop. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125/214 "2005-05-19T06:04:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Say, isn’t someone due to bash **rjung** about now? It’s his thread, isn’t it? It is? Wonder how much I can get for selling this on eBay… ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125/215 "2005-05-19T07:55:29Z")
**rjung** is a cretinous, syphilitic, festering hemorrhoid upon the asshole of humanity. He is like a toxic fungus, except with less political acumen, and contact with him is more painful. His breath reveals his penchant for snacking on owl pellets, while his face suggests that Pablo Picasso and Jackson Pollack decided to collaborate on a painting. He is less personable than Bill O’Reilly, though in **rjung** ’s case, women consider sex with falafel to be a valid alternative to sex with him. He is less welcome in social events than Phyllis Diller in a see-thru dress, particularly because his body odor inspires party guests to search for nonexistent smoked salmon canapés. Plus, his mama dresses him funny. Just so we don’t forget the purpose of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125/216 "2005-05-19T11:27:22Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Just so we don’t forget the purpose of this thread. How about a two-fer: **rjung** sucks the sweat off of George Bush’s lying nutsack. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125/217 "2005-05-19T14:10:46Z")
In response to this query upthread: > [@Red](#): > > Try this for a hypothetical – if it’s not too taxing for you: Your company assigns you (along with your inmediate family) to work in Baghdad, which period would you chose to live there assuming security was a priority? 1993-2002 or now? Locksteppin’ **Weirdave** , predictably responds in the only way his bunkered position will allow: > [@Weirdave](#): > > Now. In a fucking heartbeat. I’ll just note that said heartbeat might very well be his last if indeed he made that choice. [**It is almost as if Baghdad has turned into a giant graveyard**.](http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2005_05_01_riverbendblog_archive.html#111636281930496496) > [@](#): > > The last two weeks have been violent. The number of explosions in Baghdad alone is frightening. There have also been several assassinations- bodies being found here and there. It’s somewhat disturbing to know that corpses are turning up in the most unexpected places. **Many people will tell you it’s not wise to eat river fish anymore because they have been nourished on the human remains being dumped into the river.** That thought alone has given me more than one sleepless night. It is almost as if Baghdad has turned into a giant graveyard. (my bolding) Idyllic, isn’t it? Anyway, here’s some more pablum from said poster: > [@](#): > > I don’t advocate a poorly planned anything, nor do I think extending our military commitments at this time is wise or even possible, but I have no problem with taking out every tinpot dictator in the entire world at the point of a gun and installing democracies instead. It wouldn’t bother me a bit. Except a “dictator” is only a dictator when he’s not advancing US interests. See [Islam Karimov](http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/GE17Ag01.html) for a current example, or read about some of the following gentlemen: [FERDINAND MARCOS](http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Asia-Pacific.html#Card%2020) [GENERAL SUHARTO](http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Asia-Pacific.html#Card%2020) [RAFAEL LEONIDAS TRUJILLO](http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Caribbean.html#Card%204) [FRANÇOIS & JEAN CLAUDE DUVALIER](http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Caribbean.html#Card%204) [FULGENCIO BATISTA](http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Caribbean.html#Card%204) [GENERAL AUGUSTO PINOCHET](http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/SouthAmerica.html#Card%2013) [ALFREDO STROESSNER](http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/SouthAmerica.html#Card%2013) [COLONEL HUGO BANZER](http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/SouthAmerica.html#Card%2013) [MOHAMMAD REZA PAHLEVI](http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/EurMEast.html#Card%2033) Plenty more where those came from. What’s that they say about people living in glass houses? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125/218 "2005-05-19T14:24:18Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > What’s that they say about people living in glass houses? That it’s hard to take a dump in peace? ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125/219 "2005-05-19T14:27:21Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > That it’s hard to take a dump in peace? Plus they _really_ have a bad relationship with neighbor children playing baseball. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2005, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125/220 "2005-05-19T14:29:24Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > That it’s hard to take a dump in peace? Hah! True that. But I see it hasn’t stopped **Weirdave** from doing so all over this thead. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rule-shut-the-fuck-up-about-bush/304125.md?page=12)