# New SBVFT ad -- will we never put Vietnam behind us? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 3, 2004, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037 "2004-09-03T22:48:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/21 "2004-09-04T03:13:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I am dismayed by this tactic. > > Kerry’s record as a Senator is fair game. > > But Kerry’s testimony to Congress is not. The man went over there in uniform, in a place where people were shooting at him. He did his duty. If ANYONE is entitled to come home and speak to lawmakers about the wisdom of our Vietnam policy, it’s a guy like John Kerry. He EARNED THE RIGHT. I’m not talking about his medals - I’m talking about wearing the uniform and being in the jungle. I don’t care if it was for four days or four weeks or four months or four years. He did his job. He didn’t portest and dodge a draft. He didn’t defer. He didn’t join the Coasties. He put on the uniform and did his freakin job. > > That’s it, as far as I am concerned. Case closed. > > - Rick This is indeed a very tough one. I’ve read the book and examined the SBVT site in detail. If everything they say against Kerry’s service in Vietnam is 100% true I would still have no compaint against Kerry’s service. I look at the Rasmann incident where Kerry pulled him into the boat, and I don’t care what version is true. I don’t care if Kerry came back in a hail of gunfire, singlehandly, drove off the Viet Cong while blood was running down the gunnels. I don’t care if Kerry came back after pissing his pants and running away at the sound of the mine exploding and nobody fired a single bullet against him. The fact remains that Kerry was there, doing his duty and he pulled a distressed American soldier into his boat under what were surely stressful and dangerous circumstances. Good job Mr. Kerry. Thank you. On the other side of the coin I do take issue with Kerry’s congressional testimony. I don’t argue with his right to do it. However, by criticizing how other soldiers have comported themselves he is fairly left open to criticism himself on his own actions as well as to the truth and merits of the tetimony he gave. Certainly other veterans who served are fairly entitled to respond as the see fit. Personally, I would have preferred that they attacked solely the substance of his criticisms, rather than the substance of his service. (No disrespect intended to the brave men and women of the Coast Guard – they had a necessary job and some of them did get activated in sent to 'Nam. And no disrespect intended to the recipients of deferments – they were there for a reason and those were the rules. It was perfectly honorable to take a deferment or wear a CG uniform.) [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/22 "2004-09-04T03:45:17Z")
Welcome to the SDMB **Scylla**. 😉 There’s an interesting [little tidbit on the SBVT this evening.](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=6&u=/ap/20040904/ap_on_el_pr/anti_kerry_veterans) It turns out that two of their members, Kenneth Cordier and Paul Galanti, serve on the VA’s ‘Former POW Advisory Committee’. According to Cordier: > [@](#): > > “It’s totally apolitical, and we meet twice a year to bring to the secretary’s attention problems from around the country in VA hospitals,” Now according to the [VA’s calendar of events](http://www1.va.gov/opa/feature/OPACAL/Apr03.htm), the Former POW Advisory Committee met in Washington DC on May 28- May 30, 2004. The SBVFT got it’s start [start on May 4, 2004](http://swift1.he.net/~swiftvet/index.php?topic=SwiftVetQuotes) at a press conference at the National Press Club in Washington DC. I wonder who paid for the Swifties trip to DC, and who they met with in the 4 days between the VA meetings and their news conference? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/23 "2004-09-04T03:56:24Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > On the other side of the coin I do take issue with Kerry’s congressional testimony. I don’t argue with his right to do it. However, by criticizing how other soldiers have comported themselves he is fairly left open to criticism himself on his own actions as well as to the truth and merits of the tetimony he gave. Do you also take issue with the men and women who blew the whistle and who have testified, and will be testifying, regarding the Abu Ghraib/Gitmo/Afghanistan abuses perpetrated by our soldiers? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/24 "2004-09-04T04:08:17Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > …I don’t argue with his right to do it… His right? You don’t think he had a duty to speak? > [@](#): > > …by criticizing how other soldiers have comported themselves… Such a mild and inoffensive choice of words gives one pause, especially with one who is normally quite careful in his choice of words. One has to wonder why such delicacy seems appropriate when discussing horrific crimes. “Comported” implies matters of etiquette and diplomacy. Hardly meets the gravity of the situation. Unless one means to suggest that this tesimony was untrue, or exaggerated. Do you mean to suggest such? If it _were_ untrue, nothing more than propaganda for a political end, no one would be quicker to reach for a rope than I. Do I misread your meaning? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/25 "2004-09-04T04:09:45Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Do you also take issue with the men and women who blew the whistle and who have testified, and will be testifying, regarding the Abu Ghraib/Gitmo/Afghanistan abuses perpetrated by our soldiers? I would only if they were not accountable for their testimony, and if the those accused, and those with contradictory testimony were not allowed rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/26 "2004-09-04T04:37:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > His right? You don’t think he had a duty to speak? No. In my opinion he had no such duty. > [@](#): > > Unless one means to suggest that this tesimony was untrue, or exaggerated. Do you mean to suggest such? If it _were_ untrue, nothing more than propaganda for a political end, no one would be quicker to reach for a rope than I. Do I misread your meaning? You do not. I believe he gave false testimony at the Fulbright hearing. I believe that the Wintersoldier investigation that he held used an insufficient standard of evidence in gathering its materials concerning war crimes and that it was negligent and irresponsible to present as fact undocumented hearsay from uncredentialed persons. Subsequent investigations showed that the evidence upon which Mr. Kerry based his testimony (Re: Wintersoldier) was largely falsified and wholly undocumented. [http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Historians](http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Historians) In Kerry’s words: > [@](#): > > They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country. > > We call this investigation the “Winter Soldier Investigation.” The term “Winter Soldier” is a play on words of Thomas Paine in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriot and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough. I think his testimony was false, self-serving, and without merit. You can read the whole thing at [www.wintersoldier.com](http://www.wintersoldier.com) John O’neil who bears a 30 year grudge against Kerry sought to rebut Kerry’s testimony at the Fulbright hearing, but was not allowed to do so. He did so subsequently on the Dick Cavett show. A transcript of which is available here: [http://swift4.he.net/~swift4/index.php?topic=KerryONeill](http://swift4.he.net/~swift4/index.php?topic=KerryONeill) A further rebuttal against the war crimes of which Kerry made accusation is available here: [http://swift4.he.net/~swift4/index.php?topic=WarCrimes](http://swift4.he.net/~swift4/index.php?topic=WarCrimes) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/27 "2004-09-04T04:50:59Z")
Well, good heavens, man! Why didn’t you say so! You have the clearly impartial authority of the Freepers? Whose candor and straightforward non-partisanship is the stuff of legend! And here I thought you might be basing your opinion on sources less than reliable! But no! It is the very Freepers themselves, the very paragons of political purity! What need have we for such as the Toledo Blade, with thier ill-gotten Pulitzer? (I include the link for purposes of comparison only, that you might share friend **Scylla’s** disdain and contempt for such blatant political propaganda!) [http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE](http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/28 "2004-09-04T04:55:51Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > …It turns out that two of their members, Kenneth Cordier and Paul Galanti, serve on the VA’s ‘Former POW Advisory Committee’… Kenneth Cordier! What an amazing coincidence! Doesn’t he have _exactly_ the same name as that fellow who suddenly resigned from GeeDubya’s campaign? Boy, what are the odds! ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/29 "2004-09-04T05:00:38Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, good heavens, man! Why didn’t you say so! You have the clearly impartial authority of the Freepers? Whose candor and straightforward non-partisanship is the stuff of legend! And here I thought you might be basing your opinion on sources less than reliable! But no! It is the very Freepers themselves, the very paragons of political purity! What specific flaws do you find in the material cited? What need have we for such as the Toledo Blade, with thier ill-gotten Pulitzer? (I include the link for purposes of comparison only, that you might share friend **Scylla’s** disdain and contempt for such blatant political propaganda!) [http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE](http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE) [/QUOTE] To my knowledge no one is asserting that some specific atrocities did not occur. What is at issue was Mr. Kerry’s claim that they were commonplace, not the exception and that they occured with the full knowledge and encouragement of the chain of command. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/30 "2004-09-04T05:06:52Z")
I’m afraid you’re misinformed, **Scylla**. [**Swift Boat Veterans Anti-Kerry Ad: “He Betrayed Us” With 1971 Anti-War Testimony**](http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docid=244) **Group quotes Kerry’s descriptions of atrocities by US forces. In fact, atrocities did happen.** > [@](#): > > August 23, 2004 > Modified: August 23, 2004 > > **Summary** > > “Swift Boat Veterans for Truth” announced a second anti-Kerry ad Aug. 20, using Kerry’s own words against him. It features the 27-year-old Kerry in 1971 telling the Senate Foreign Relations Committee stories about American troops cutting off heads and ears, razing villages “in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan” and committing “crimes . . . on a day-to-day basis.” > > The Kerry campaign called it a smear and said his words were “edited” out of context. The ad does indeed fail to mention that Kerry was quoting stories he had heard from others at an anti-war event in Detroit, and not claiming first-hand knowledge. But Kerry passed them on as true stories. > > The ad characterizes Kerry as making “accusations . . . against the verterans who served in Vietnam.” The Kerry campaign denies that, saying Kerry was placing blame on the country’s leaders, not the veterans. But Kerry himself said earlier this year that his words were those of “an angry young man . . . inappropriate . . . a little bit excessive . . . a little bit over the top.” > > Kerry’s critics point to a 1978 history of Vietnam that challenged some of the witnesses Kerry quoted. But other published accounts provide ample evidence that atrocities such as those Kerry described actually were committed. > > **Analysis** > > The ad’s title is “sellout,” and features Vietnam veterans saying Kerry “dishonored his country” and aided the enemy by airing allegations in 1971 of US atrocities in Vietnam. > > > [@](#): > > > > SIDEBAR > > > > SBVT Ad > > > > “Sellout” > > > > **John Kerry** (from Senate Testimony in 1971): They had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads… > > > > **Joe Ponder:** The accusations that John Kerry made against the veterans who served in Vietnam was just devastating. > > > > **John Kerry:** …randomly shot at civilians… > > > > **Joe Ponder:** …and it hurt me more than any physical wounds I had. > > > > **John Kerry:** …cut of limbs, blown up bodies… > > > > Ken Cordier: That was part of the torture, to sign a statement that you had committed war crimes. > > > > **John Kerry:** …razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan… > > > > **Paul Galanti:** John Kerry gave the enemy for free, what I and many of my comrades, in the North Vietnamese prison camps, took torture to avoid saying. It demoralized us. > > > > **John Kerry:** …crimes committed on a day to day basis… > > > > **Ken Cordier:** He betrayed us in the past, how could we be loyal to him now? > > > > **John Kerry:** …ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam… > > > > **Paul Galanti:** He dishonored his country, and more importantly, the people he served with. He just sold them out. > > \*\*Out of Context? \*\* > On Aug. 20 the Kerry campaign issued a [statement](http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0820b.html) calling the ad an a smear and a distortion, saying it “takes Kerry’s testimony out of context, editing what he said to distort the facts.” > > There is some missing context. What’s missing from the ad is that Kerry was relating what he had heard at an an event in Detroit a few weeks earlier sponsored by Vietnam Veterans Against the War, and was not claiming to have witnessed those atrocities personally. > > Here is a more complete excerpt of what Kerry said, with the words used in the ad bold-faced so that readers can judge for themselves how much the added context might change their understanding of how Kerry was quoted in the ad: > > **Kerry Senate Testimony (1971):** I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but \*\*crimes committed on a day-to-day basis \*\* with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. > > It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit, the emotions in the room, the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam, but they did. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do. > > They told the stories at times **they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads** , tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, **cut off limbs, blown up bodies** , randomly shot at civilians, **razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan** , shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally **ravaged the country side of South Vietnam** in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country. > > The record gives no sign that Kerry doubted the stories he was relating. In fact, he said earlier this year that he still stands by much of what he said 33 years earlier (see below) and that “a lot of them (the atrocity stories) have been documented.” > > **Accusing Veterans? Or US War Policy?** > One veteran who appears in the ad says “The accusations that John Kerry made **against the veterans** who served in Vietnam was just devastating.” Kerry’s campaign insists his 1971 testimony as “an indictment of America’s political leadership—not fellow veterans.” > > As an example, Kerry aides point to a portion of Kerry’s testimony in which he places the blame for the 1968 My Lai massacre not on the troops, but on their superiors: “I think clearly the responsibility for what has happened there lies elsewhere. I think it lies with the men who designed free fire zones. I think it lies with the men who encourage body counts.” But that statement came only in response to a direct question, long after Kerry volunteered his description of rapes and mutilations. > > Earlier in 1971, during an NBC “Meet the Press” interview, Kerry explicitly spoke of “the men who designed the free-fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas” and said he considered them “war criminals.” But he did not draw such a sharp distinction between leaders and followers during the"atrocity" portion of his Senate testimony. > > **Winter Soldier Event Discredited?** > Kerry critics have long disputed that atrocities by US forces were as prevalent as Kerry suggested. And at least some of the testimony at the “[Winter Soldier](http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Winter_Soldier/WS_03_1Marine.html)” event was called into question by historian Guenter Lewy in a 1978 book, America in Vietnam. Lewy noted that the event had been staged with financial help from Jane Fonda. He stated that many of the Winter Soldier participants later refused to speak to investigators for the Naval Investigative Service even though they were assured that they wouldn’t be questioned about atrocities they might have committed personally. Lewy also suggested that some of the witnesses were imposters: > > \*\*Guenter Lewy, America in Vietnam (1978): \*\* But the most damaging finding consisted of the sworn statements of several veterans, corroborated by witnesses, that they had in fact not attended the hearing in Detroit. One of them had never been to Detroit in all his life. He did not know, he stated, who might have used his name. > Kerry’s critics point to that as evidence that he was irresponsibly passing on false atrocity stories. However, there’s no question that events such as Kerry described did happen, as Lewy himself stated: > > **Lewy:** Incidents similar to some of those described at the VVAW hearing undoubtedly did occur. We know that hamlets were destroyed, prisoners tortured, and corpses mutilated. > Some atrocities by US forces have been documented beyond question. Kerry’s 1971 testimony came less than one month after Army Lt. William Calley had been convicted in a highly publicized military trial of the murder of the murder of 22 Vietnamese civilians at My Lai hamlet on March 16 1968, when upwards of 300 unarmed men, women and children were killed by the inexperienced soldiers of the Americal Division’s Charley Company. > > And since Kerry testified, ample evidence of other atrocities has come to light: [ul][li] **Son Thang:** In 1998, for example, Marine Corps veteran Gary D. Solis published the book Son Thang: An American War Crime describing the court-martial of four US Marines for the apparently unprovoked killing 16 women and children on the night of February 19, 1970 in a hamlet about 20 miles south of Danang. The four Marines testified that they were under orders by their patrol leader to shoot the villagers. A young Oliver North appeared as a character witness and helped acquit the leader of all charges, but three were convicted.[/li][li] **Tiger Force:** The \*Toledo Blade \* won a Pulitzer Prize this year for a series published in October, 2003 reporting that atrocities were committed by an elite US Army “Tiger Force” unit that the Blade said killed unarmed civilians and children during a seven-month rampage in 1967. “Elderly farmers were shot as they toiled in the fields. Prisoners were tortured and executed - their ears and scalps severed for souvenirs. One soldier kicked out the teeth of executed civilians for their gold fillings,” the _Blade_ reported. “Investigators concluded that 18 soldiers committed war crimes ranging from murder and assault to dereliction of duty. But no one was charged.”[/li][li] **“Hundreds” of others:** In December 2003 The \*New York Times \* quoted Nicholas Turse, a doctoral candidate at Columbia University who has been studying government archives, as saying the records are filled with accounts of atrocities similar to those described by the \*Toledo Blade \* series. “I stumbled across the incidents The _Blade_ reported,” Turse was quoted as saying. “I read through that case a year, year and a half ago, and it really didn’t stand out. There was nothing that made it stand out from anything else. That’s the scary thing. It was just one of hundreds.”[/li][li]\*\*“Exact Same Stories”: \*\* Keith Nolan, author of 10 published books on Vietnam, says he’s heard many veterans describe atrocities just like those Kerry recounted from the Winter Soldier event. Nolan told [FactCheck.org](http://FactCheck.org) that since 1978 he’s interviewed roughly 1,000 veterans in depth for his books, and spoken to thousands of others. “I have heard the exact same stories dozens if not hundreds of times over,” he said. “Wars produce atrocities. Frustrating guerrilla wars produce a particularly horrific number of atrocities. That some individual soldiers and certain units responded with excessive brutality in Vietnam shouldn’t really surprise anyone.”[/ul] **“A Little Bit Excessive”** [/li] > Aside from his Senate testimony, the young Kerry spoke publicly in 1971 of “war crimes,” and said in his April 18, 1971 NBC “Meet the Press” interview that he had personally engaged in “atrocities” like “thousands of others” who engaged in shootings in free-fire zones. He said then that he considered the officials who set such war policies to be “war criminals.” But 30 years later, anticipating a run for the White House, Kerry took a more conciliatory tone when confronted by NBC’s Tim Russert, again on NBC News’ “Meet the Press” program: > > **Kerry (May 6, 2001; Meet the Press):** I don’t stand by the genocide I think **those were the words of an angry young man**. We did not try to do that. But I do stand by the description–I don’t even believe there is a purpose served in the word “war criminal.” I really don’t. But I stand by the rest of what happened over there, Tim. > > . . . (We) misjudged history. We misjudged our own country. We misjudged our strategy. And we fell into a dark place. All of us. And I think we learned that over time. And I hope the contribution that some of us made as veterans was to come back and help people understand that. > > **I think our soldiers served as nobly, on the whole, as in any war, and people need to understand that**. > And earlier this year, Kerry was again pressed on his 1971 antiwar views, and responded to some of the same points now being raised anew in the Swift Boat Veterans ad. He said his 1971 words were “honest” but “a little bit over the top.” > > [INDENT] **Q: You committed atrocities?** > > \*\*Kerry (Meet the Press Apr. 18, 2004: ) \*\* Where did all that dark hair go, Tim? That’s a big question for me. You know, I thought a lot, for a long time, about that period of time, the things we said, and \*\*I think the word is a bad word. I think it’s an inappropriate word. \*\* I mean, if you wanted to ask me have you ever made mistakes in your life, sure. **I think some of the language that I used was a language that reflected an anger. It was honest, but it was in anger, it was a little bit excessive.** > > \*\*Q:\*\*You used the word “war criminals.” > > **Kerry:** Well, let me just finish. Let me must finish. It was, I think, a reflection of the kind of times we found ourselves in and I don’t like it when I hear it today. I don’t like it, but **I want you to notice that at the end, I wasn’t talking about the soldiers and the soldiers’ blame** , and my great regret is, I hope no soldier–I mean, I think some soldiers were angry at me for that, and I understand that and I regret that, because I love them. **But the words were honest but on the other hand, they were a little bit over the top.** And I think that there were breaches of the Geneva Conventions. There were policies in place that were not acceptable according to the laws of warfare, and everybody knows that. I mean, books have chronicled that, so I’m not going to walk away from that. But **I wish I had found a way to say it in a less abrasive way**. > > \*\*Q: \*\* But, Senator, when you testified before the Senate, you talked about some of the hearings you had observed at the winter soldiers meeting and you said that people had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and on and on. A lot of those stories have been discredited, and in hindsight was your testimony… > > \*\*Kerry: \*\* Actually, a lot of them have been documented. > > **Q:** So you stand by that? > > **Kerry: A lot of those stories have been documented. Have some been discredited? Sure, they have, Tim.** The problem is that’s not where the focus should have been. And, you know, when you’re angry about something and you’re young, you know, you’re perfectly capable of not–I mean, if I had the kind of experience and time behind me that I have today, I’d have framed some of that differently. Needless to say, \*\*I’m proud that I stood up. I don’t want anybody to think twice about it. I’m proud that I took the position that I took to oppose it. I think we saved lives, and I’m proud that I stood up at a time when it was important to stand up, but I’m not going to quibble, you know, 35 years later that I might not have phrased things more artfully at times.[/\*\*INDENT] > **Sources** > > “Kerry Campaign Statement on New Swift Boat Veterans for Bush Ad,” Kerry-Edwards 2004, 20 Aug 2004. > > Testimony of John Kerry, “Legislative Proposals Relating to the War in Southeast Asia,” US Senate Committee on Foreign Relations 22 April 1971. > > Guenter Lewy, “America in Vietnam” Oxford University Press NY 1978 > > “Buried Secrets, Brutal Truths: The Series; Elite unit savaged civilians in Vietnam,” Toledo Blade 22 Oct 2003. > > Michael D. Sallah and Mitch Weiss, “Rogue GIs unleashed wave of terror in Central Highlands,” Toledo Blade 22 Oct 2003. > > Joe Mahr, " Tiger Force answers still elusive; Washington slow in responding to calls for Army prosecution," Toledo Blade, 12 May Jo2004. > > John Kifner, “Report on Brutal Vietnam Campaign Stirs Memories,” New York Times, 28 Dec 2003: A24. > > Interview with Keith Nolan, 23 Aug 2004. > > John F. Kerry, “Meet the Press” NBC News 18 April 1991. > > John F. Kerry, “Meet the Press” NBC News 6 May 2001. > > John F. Kerry, "Meet the Press " NBC News 18 April 2004. > Copyright 2004 Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania > Judgments expressed are those of [FactCheck.org](http://FactCheck.org)’s staff, not the Annenberg Center ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/31 "2004-09-04T05:31:57Z")
Shayna: Thank you for that link and excerpt. I don’t beleive that I’m misinformed though. As you’ll note I responded to some of the points you made while you were gathering them, and in fact used a quote from your excerpt. I don’t feel that I’m misinformed. I am aware that atrocities occured. That is not really the issue, and I think that we can have agreement on it. Kerry characterizes these atrocities as commonplace rather than the exception, and himself concedes that he was excessive. I feel on strong ground that he was irresponsible in the gathering of his evidence during the Wintersoldier investigation and in his characterization of it during the Fulbright testimony. I feel that in choosing to make such a testimony he had the duty to be careful and accurate rather than excessive and angry in his characterizations, and that he was not. I feel that it is doubly so in a time of war, and while I appreciate Mr. Kerry’s backing off of his tesitmony to some degree, I do not feel that it is enough, nor that it excuses his excesses. Further, I feel that in a wartime and as a ready reservist it was improper and probably highly illegal for Mr. Kerry to negotiate with foreign powers in Paris as he did on two occasions when he met with members of the North Vietnamese Government concerning the war. He seems to recognize this behavior as marginal in his testimony to the Fulbright committee. I feel that such recognition does not excuse it. This also does not explain his mischaracterization of the role of Swiftboats to the Washington post: [http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=WarCrimes](http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=WarCrimes) nor his misrepresentation of the meeting at Ton Suhn Nut: [http://www.swiftvets.com/staticpages/index.php?page=Summit](http://www.swiftvets.com/staticpages/index.php?page=Summit) Finally, having undergone SERE training while enlisted Kerry had full knowledge that his public testimony against his fellow soldiers and his activities with the North Vietnamese government could and most likely would be used against POWS currently held by the enemy. Because of this, his duty was to be careful and accurate in his testimony, which he was not. I can think of no rational explanation for how he justifies meeting with the North Vietnamese. Perhaps the most telling thing about this particular chain of events is how it was recognized by the North Vietnamese themselves. They consider Mr. Kerry a hero of the war that helped win it for them, and he is memorialized in their war remnants museum. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/32 "2004-09-04T05:36:50Z")
> [@](#): > > …What specific flaws do you find in the material cited?.. Well, lets clarify a few things first. I’ve danced a few waltzes with you and have found it is less agonizing if we settle the ground rules first. For instance, do you expect me, or anyone in their right mind, to accept the Freepers as a source of nonpartisan, unbiased information? Because if the answer is “yes”, or any variation thereof, its probably best if we just leave this thread to such persons as agree with that notion, that they made trade theories on Hilary’s Satanism and Black Helicopters. > [@](#): > > …To my knowledge no one is asserting that some specific atrocities did not occur. What is at issue was Mr. Kerry’s claim that they were commonplace, not the exception and that they occured with the full knowledge and encouragement of the chain of command. “Commonplace” wants definition as well. In your own backhanded way, you have admitted that some “specific atrocities” might have occurred. But your double negative syntax doesn’t _quite_ rise to that, you only say that no one is saying they didn’t. Which isn’t quite the same thing, now is it? So lets be clear: did such things occur? Once? Twice? A hundred? What, _precisely_ do you mean by “commonplace”? And, of course, a multitude of sins can be hidden inside the phrase “full knowledge and encouragement”. Its a pit, covered in leaves and twigs, with big sharp sticks protruding up from the bottom, for the unwary and innocent. Been there, done that, once is more than enough. How about we accept the principles established by the United States in the Yamashita trial? That a commanding officer, and every officer in the chain of command, has responsibility for the actions of thier subordinates, regardless of their personal knowledge of war crimes, or even complete lack thereof. We _hanged_ him, you know. Those definitions acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/33 "2004-09-04T05:56:30Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > To my knowledge no one is asserting that some specific atrocities did not occur. What is at issue was Mr. Kerry’s claim that they were commonplace, not the exception and that they occured with the full knowledge and encouragement of the chain of command. Is this high up the chain of command enough for you? [**Bombing of Vietnam’s Dikes**](http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Bombing_of_Vietnam's_Dikes) > [@](#): > > Late in the Vietnam War, the United States of America engaged in a policy of systematically bombing a system of dikes in Vietnam’s Red River Delta that protected several hundred thousand people from having their land overrun by water. > > The threat of the bombing was used as a leveraging tool against the North Vietnamese to encourage them to accept a proposed truce. The Red River Delta provided the majority of the food to North Vietnam, and the destruction of the farmland and the people within would have starved the nation’s population and army > > \ > > The following transcript between Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger on the subject was recorded in 1972; it has since been published in “Secrets: A Memoir of Vietnam and the Pentagon Papers” by journalist and publisher of The Pentagon Papers, Daniel Ellsberg. > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\*Nixon: We’ve got to quit thinking in terms of a three-day strike [in the Hanoi-Haiphong area]. We’ve got to be thinking in terms of an all-out bombing attack - which will continue until they - Now by all-out bombing attack, I am thinking about things that go far beyond. I’m thinking of the dikes, I’m thinking of the railroad, I’m thinking, of course, the docks. > > > > Kissinger: I agree with you. > > > > President Nixon: We’ve got to use massive force. > > > > Two hours later at noon, H. R. Haldeman and Ron Ziegler joined Kissinger and Nixon: > > > > President: How many did we kill in Laos? > > > > Ziegler: Maybe ten thousand - fifteen? > > > > Kissinger: In the Laotian thing, we killed about ten, fifteen. > > > > President: See, the attack in the North that we have in mind, power plants, whatever’s left - POL [petroleum], the docks. And, I still think we ought to take the dikes out now. Will that drown people? > > > > Kissinger: About two hundred thousand people. > > > > President: No, no, no, I’d rather use the nuclear bomb. Have you got that, Henry? > > > > Kissinger: That, I think, would just be too much. > > > > President: The nuclear bomb, does that bother you?..I just want you to think big, Henry, for Christsakes. > > \*\* Think people who felt that way that would much care for the systematic butchering of a few thousand civilians? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/34 "2004-09-04T06:08:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, lets clarify a few things first. I’ve danced a few waltzes with you and have found it is less agonizing if we settle the ground rules first. For instance, do you expect me, or anyone in their right mind, to accept the Freepers as a source of nonpartisan, unbiased information? You are neither nonpartisan nor unbiased. Nor am I for that matter. That is neither an endorsement nor a condemnation of me, you, or the freepers. If you have a specific issue with the cited material as I’ve cited it, feel free to make it, and expect me to address it. “Commonplace” wants definition as well. In your own backhanded way, you have admitted that some “specific atrocities” might have occurred. But your double negative syntax doesn’t _quite_ rise to that, you only say that no one is saying they didn’t. Which isn’t quite the same thing, now is it? So lets be clear: did such things occur? Once? Twice? A hundred? What, _precisely_ do you mean by “commonplace”? Kerry said: “These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.” (Referring to atrocities and "They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war " So by “commonplace” I am using short-hand for “not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day to day basis.” Ok? > [@](#): > > And, of course, a multitude of sins can be hidden inside the phrase “full knowledge and encouragement”. Its a pit, covered in leaves and twigs, with big sharp sticks protruding up from the bottom, for the unwary and innocent. Been there, done that, once is more than enough. Not really. It’s referring directly to Kerry’s quote concerning the “full awareness of officers at all levels of command,” and “…American presence in most cases by showing the flag and firing at sampans and villages along the banks. Those were our instructions,” (full context here: [http://www2.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=WarCrimes,)](http://www2.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=WarCrimes,)) so I think that “knowledge and encouragement” is a fair parsing of Kerry’s words. > [@](#): > > How about we accept the principles established by the United States in the Yamashita trial? That a commanding officer, and every officer in the chain of command, has responsibility for the actions of thier subordinates, regardless of their personal knowledge of war crimes, or even complete lack thereof. > > We _hanged_ him, you know. > > Those definitions acceptable? I’m not sufficiently familiar with the case to accept it. For the record Elucidator I am trying to apply the same standards of evidence to Kerry as I did in our innumerable debates concerning Bush. IMO the case to be made against Kerry concerning his service in Vietnam is insufficient to merit the charges they’ve weighed against him. Kerry could clear this up by releasing his full records. But, like Bush, I feel his under no compulsion to do so. The Swifties should prove their case. They have not shown that he served with dishonor. They should not make the accusation that he did. Further, I am fully aware that the words being used against him are culled from specifically because of their value against him. I recognize that you lived through the time period in question while I was in diapers. Nevertheless, I think that Kerry’s words and actions upon his return with VVAW are unworthy of the service he rendered and of his fellow veterans who had served and were still serving. Kerry himself seems to recognize this and has addressed it to some degree. How we interpret this and what choices we make based on it are going to be personal and subject to our own judgements. Personally, I think Kerry’s activities with VVAW represent the low point of his career. How he juggles (or fails to juggle) the battling memes of noble warrior and weary protester embittered by personal atrocities is going to largely color the remainder of the election process for better or for worse. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/35 "2004-09-04T06:23:13Z")
One more for the road: [**The Best of The Nixon Years**](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5079259/site/newsweek/) > [@Richard Nixon](#): > > “You’re so goddamned concerned about the civilians, and I don’t give a d—n. I don’t care.”—Nixon to Kissinger in 1972, admonishing his aide about concerns over killing Vietnamese civilians What’s left to debate? Best let sleeping dogs lie. Not a particularly proud period for America if I may say so myself. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/36 "2004-09-04T06:28:03Z")
Oddly enough, my view is precisely the opposite. I see a man who craved a political career, a born political animal, in many respect similar to Bill Clinton. And was perfectly willing to throw his career in the shitter to speak truth to power. In comparison to that, Clinton and Bush _both_ look like puling cowards. As to your using the same adamantine standards of proof that you insisted by applied to GeeDubya (i.e., documents, eyewitnesses, affidavits, confessions written in blood, DNA test to prove the source of the blood, direct testimony of God Almighty, etc.), I hasten to note that all you have provided so far is sources known to all here as being sworn enemies of Sen Kerry: nothing but Freepers and SwiftVets. If those are going to be your standards, you’re off to a _mighty_ weak start. Unless you amend that oversight PDQ, you got diddly squat. And if you do mean what you say about using the same standards of evidence you demanded during the Harken Debacle (aka “The Long March”), then don’t _you_ have to prove your case? You say Kerry was lying, yes? It is your assertion, is it not. Isn’t the burden of proof on you, in this instance, as it was on me in the previous? That lies somewhere between the daunting and the impossible. Are you _sure_ you’ve given this enough thought? Your skills in the defensive posture are formidable, as no one knows better than myself. But if the burden of proof is on you, you haven’t got a prayer. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/37 "2004-09-04T06:45:23Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > …I recognize that you lived through the time period in question while I was in diapers… Far be it from me to use your callow youth and naivete against you. In fact, I won’t even mention it. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/38 "2004-09-04T06:57:17Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > They consider Mr. Kerry a hero of the war that helped win it for them, and he is memorialized in their war remnants museum. Ah, lovely. Now, wouldn’t it be slightly relevant mentioning why Kerry’s picture is in that museum ? The photo that’s making the rounds over at Freep and other sites of that character was taken in _1993_ (for those keeping score at home, that’s a couple of decades after the Vietnam war) where John Kerry chaired the bipartisan Senate Select Committee with the (rather obviously thankless) job of trying to lay the POW/MIA issue to rest. As part of the committee’s work, Kerry and others went to Hanoi to try to open communications channels, gain access for body recovery crews etc. Incidentally, John McCain was on the committee and on the same trip to Vietnam, although for some reason that little factoid doesn’t get as much airtime. (The right can tolerate McCain again, it seems. Dragging _his_ name in the mud was strictly a 2000 phenomenon.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/39 "2004-09-04T11:26:52Z")
Friend **Scylla** is tenderhearted, and ever mindful of overburdening the hamsters. It is important that we know that Mr. Kerry is a hero to the Communist Vietnamese, it is not important that we be burdened with trivial exculpatory information. (Nice catch, by the way. Good show, that. Pip, pip.) ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/40 "2004-09-04T13:27:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > As to your using the same adamantine standards of proof that you insisted by applied to GeeDubya (i.e., documents, eyewitnesses, affidavits, confessions written in blood, DNA test to prove the source of the blood, direct testimony of God Almighty, etc.), I hasten to note that all you have provided so far is sources known to all here as being sworn enemies of Sen Kerry: nothing but Freepers and SwiftVets. If those are going to be your standards, you’re off to a _mighty_ weak start. Unless you amend that oversight PDQ, you got diddly squat. Your feelings concerning Swiftvets and Freerupublic nothwithstanding, you need to respond by showing me what is wrong with the substance of the cites I’ve produced by engaging them and demonstrating fault. Deprecating them out of hand is simply an ad hominem attack and therefore fallacious. > [@](#): > > And if you do mean what you say about using the same standards of evidence you demanded during the Harken Debacle (aka “The Long March”), then don’t _you_ have to prove your case? You say Kerry was lying, yes? It is your assertion, is it not. Isn’t the burden of proof on you, in this instance, as it was on me in the previous? That lies somewhere between the daunting and the impossible. Well yes. That’s why I have no quarrel with Kerry’s Vietnam service. Such charges as levelled by the Swiftvets must carry a very high standard of evidence. One they have failed to meet, IMO. For example, as I read what they had to say about his service, I realized that they made a very compelling case. They just failed to prove it. So my assumption is that Kerry’s Service was as it has seemed for the last 30 years. Heroic. Certainly in the Harkens thread, and the National Guard thread your stance was that Bush was pretty much guilty and that innocence needed to be proven. Kerry’s Wintersoldier testimony is a matter of public record, however. > [@](#): > > Are you _sure_ you’ve given this enough thought? Your skills in the defensive posture are formidable, as no one knows better than myself. But if the burden of proof is on you, you haven’t got a prayer. I appreciate the compliment. Indeed, my Kung Fu is strong. The burden of proof re: the Wintersoldier thing isn’t that tough though. Kerry hangs himself on the record. He did not follow responsible rules of evidence in gathering the material for his testimony, failing to verify that those testifying were in fact actual combat veterans. He admits to meeting with North Vietnamese representatives and discussing terms of peace during a time of war in his own testimony and several times since. IANA lawyer but it seems to me that this is specifically illegal. When taken with the context that Kerry was an Ex-navy officer (and I beleive still affiliated with the Ready reserves at the time,) and a veteran of Sere training, he was fully informed that his words and actions could and would most likely be used against him as regards to POWS and could consist of giving aid and comfort to the enemy. That, I beleive is treason. Several POWS are on the record pointing out that Kerry’s testimony was used as an instrument against them and as proof that they were war criminals by the Vietnamese. Some say that his actions extended the war and caused more US casualties. From POW Paul Galanti in the LA Times, Feb 17, 2004: ""Paul Galanti learned of Kerry’s speech while held captive inside North Vietnam’s infamous “Hanoi Hilton” prison. The Navy pilot had been shot down in June 1966 and spent nearly seven years as a prisoner of war. During torture sessions, he said, his captors citied the antiwar speeches as “an example of why we should cross over to (their) side.” "The Viet Cong didn’t think they had to win the war on the battlefield."Galanti said, “because thanks to these protesters they were going to win it on the streets of San Francisco and Washington.” He says Kerry broke a covenant among servicemen never to make public criticisms that might jeopardize those still in battle or in the hands of the enemy. Because he did, Galanti said, “John Kerry was a traitor to the men he served with.” Now retired and living in Richmond, VA., Galanti, 64, refuses to cool his ire toward Kerry. “I don’t plan to set it aside. I don’t know anyone who does,” he said. “The Vietnam memorial has thousands of additional names due to John Kerry and others like him.” You can read about it here: [www.powmiafamiliesagainstjohnkerry.com/formerpows/formerpows.htm](http://www.powmiafamiliesagainstjohnkerry.com/formerpows/formerpows.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037.md?page=3)