# New SBVFT ad -- will we never put Vietnam behind us? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 3, 2004, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037 "2004-09-03T22:48:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/61 "2004-09-04T21:46:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, really, what the heck are the “Freepers”? 😕 > **[Free Republic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Republic)** > > Free Republic is a moderated Internet forum and chat site for self-described conservatives, primarily within the United States. It presents articles and comments posted pseudonymously by registered members, known as "Freepers", using screen names. The site is supported entirely by donations, with pledge drives known as "Freepathons" held each quarter. > Free Republic has been involved in several organized conservative campaigns including against CBS anchor Dan Rather after Rather reported on docum... > [@](#): > > Free Republic was founded in 1996 by Jim Robinson of California as a discussion site during the presidency of Bill Clinton. Members would copy articles from other news sources and then the community would discuss them. The group first came to prominence during the Clinton impeachment controversy when protests and write-in campaigns were organized. The group also played an important role in the controversy over the disputed presidential election of 2000 where it again organized protests, including the creation of “Sore/Loserman” signs — an allusion to Al Gore and Joe Lieberman. The group has also played a role in organizing demonstrations supporting the 2003 invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq. > > … > > Because it has been a practice of its users to copy and paste copyrighted news stories in their entirety to its discussion boards, FreeRepublic was sued by The Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times. (Reuters and The Wall Street Journal were part of the original consortium threatening legal action, but they dropped out before the lawsuit was filed.) Many members view the lawsuit as an unsuccessful conspiracy by the leftist media to stifle the organization; founder Robinson referred to the suit as “a life and death struggle with elements of the socialist propaganda machine.” Since Scylla does bring them as reliable evidence, I can mention that leftist’s blogs did found that Jerome Corsi, co-author of Swift Boat Vets attack book, is a freeper extraordinaire: [http://mediamatters.org/items/200408060010](http://mediamatters.org/items/200408060010) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/62 "2004-09-04T21:54:00Z")
Not entirely fair. Those quotes reveal Mr. Corsi to be a loathesome bigot and foil-hat loon. Doesn’t make him a liar. Just a pustule. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/63 "2004-09-04T22:33:47Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > One served as a gunner with Kerry on the same boat (thus disproving the “They didn’t serve on the same boat with him” theme.) IRRELEVANT, because **he wasn’t there to witness what he claims**! > [@](#): > > [http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200408240001](http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200408240001) > > **Swift Boat Vet “eyewitness” was not present for events leading to Kerry’s medals or Purple Hearts** > > Stephen Gardner has been touted by the anti-Kerry group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and by conservative hosts as a singularly authoritative critic with firsthand knowledge of Senator John Kerry’s (D-MA) record in Vietnam because Gardner – unlike all the other members of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth – actually served on a swift boat that Kerry commanded. Gardner has questioned Kerry’s integrity; has claimed personal knowledge of the circumstances leading to Kerry’s first Purple Heart; and has spoken with authority about the events leading to Kerry’s Bronze Star. Fellow anti-Kerry Swift Boat Vets member Larry Thurlow has also cited Gardner as eyewitness support for his accusations against Kerry and against Kerry’s first Purple Heart. Yet while Gardner did serve as a gunner under Kerry’s command on PCF (Patrol Craft Fast) 44, **he has admitted that he – just like the rest of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth claiming that Kerry is lying about his medals – was not present for the incidents leading to Kerry’s receipt of any medals or any of Kerry’s three Purple Hearts.** > > \*\*Gardner admitted that “he was not on the boat with Kerry during the incidents for which Kerry got his medals,” \*\* reported The Columbus Dispatch on August 6. And as a guest on Michael Savage’s radio show, Savage Nation, on August 2, Gardner said that of Kerry’s three Purple Hearts, he could only attest to the first; Gardner later admitted to Savage that he was “not on the boat with him [Kerry]” when that injury occurred. > > Yet in repeated media appearances, conservative hosts have presented Gardner as an eyewitness to key Kerry events. **And in at least two interviews, Gardner has falsely claimed that he was present for the incidents leading to Kerry’s receipt of awards.** > > \ > > In an apparent attempt to substantiate his status as an eyewitness to key Kerry events, Gardner claimed on Scarborough Country, “[T]hat boat never left the dock that I wasn’t aboard it with John Kerry, never. I was with that boat everywhere we went.” Gardner went on to make assertions regarding the events that occurred on March 13, 1969, involving Kerry’s rescue of Jim Rassmann, for which Kerry received the Bronze Star. \*\*Gardner claimed to know that Kerry fled the scene on the river that day \*\* while the other three boats stayed and that Kerry then “turned around and came all the way back to pick up Mr. Rassmann that he had thrown off his boat when he took off, when he fled down the canal.” \*\*But later in the show, Gardner admitted to not being present that day. \*\* When Scarborough attempted to revisit the “March 13, 1969 incident,” Gardner said, **"I’m not going to deal with that. Because I wasn’t there."** > > On the August 16 edition of MSNBC’s Hardball with Chris Matthews, Thurlow cited Gardner to substantiate his claim that Kerry’s first Purple Heart “was fabricated and wasn’t based on any factuality at all.” According to Thurlow, Gardner said “that he [Kerry] received an injury due to a mistake he made when he fired an M-79 close aboard and was hit by his own shrapnel” and that “Kerry applied for a Purple Heart that he did not merit.” > > On the August 2 broadcast of Savage Nation, **Gardner himself claimed that all of the wounds for which Kerry received Purple Hearts "were superficial wounds** , and I mean very superficial, scratches. The very first one is the only one that I can actually attest to because I was there when that wound happened." But Gardner was not there when Kerry sustained that wound; as noted above, **Gardner went on to admit: "I was not on the boat with him** but I – in the next three days following that, I was with him on the boat going to take our new position up down there on the seaward operations." > > \ Liars. Buncha damn liars. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/64 "2004-09-04T23:57:50Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Not at all. First off the claim that either site has been “disproven,” is a large and sweeping claim. Careful debaters make careful claims. People interested in truth make careful claims. All the things that they claim about Kerry’s actions, are contradicted by the official records, other records recently released confirm what Kerry said, when it was found that the swifters even said that Kerry authored the reports that gave him one or more of the medals, then it was found that other people made reports that corroborated (IIRC there was no proof that Kerry was the author of the reports making this an already reckless claim from part of the swifters) Kerry’s version of events. So no, the claims of the swifters were not “careful” in regards for the truth, they were careful in regards to misleading the nation, so on that I can give them points, but how does it fell polishing a turd like the swifters allegations? If all this time you were hiding a freeper cave **Scylla** , it is normal that you don’t know about those things, but I think in the back of your mind you realize they were not giving you the whole picture, so on that regard, welcome back. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/65 "2004-09-05T00:23:51Z")
> [@](#): > > …Careful debaters make careful claims. People interested in truth make careful claims… Indeed we do. We offer multiple cites, as noted above. You, on the other hand, keep repeating the same cites as though Gospel. Unless you show otherwise, we are forced to the conclusion that Freepers and SwiftVets, both avowed enemies of Sen Kerry, are your only sources. If this is not so, then all you need do is produce them. Well, where are they? Bring them on, let us have them in the full glare of sunlight, the best disinfectant. > [@](#): > > …His claim that the Swiftboats mission was to fire on villages and Sampans committing atrocities is a blatant lie. His claim that the meeting with General Abrams was to prevent a mutiny (my paraphrasing here) based on soul sickness over committed atrocities is also a lie. His claim that 60-80% of Vietnam Veterans went through the day stoned and on narcotics is also a lie. His claim that the entire officer corps was complicit in atrocities is also a lie… This paragraph is a prime example. You bring up other claims that you have yet to refer to, as though you were reviewing matters discussed and verified. But they have not been discussed, you offer no cites _at all_, not even the laughable Freepers or the discredited SwiftVets. Surely you don’t expect to be taken at your word simply because of the vast affection and enormous respect we hold for you? Four charges, and not so much as one cite. And yet you presume to sniff condescendingly about the argumentative propriety of others. It speaks for itself. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/66 "2004-09-05T00:36:12Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > …His claim that the Swiftboats mission was to fire on villages and Sampans committing atrocities is a blatant lie. Not so fast, Comrade **Scylla**! I for one think this allegation bears some weight, and that John Kerry should be turned over to an appropriate international body, and that this matter should be _fully_ investigated. After all, who better than John Kerry would know if the Swift Boats were involved in war crimes? And by ‘internationalizing’ the matter, we as a nation show goodwill and respect towards the world community. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/67 "2004-09-05T00:46:10Z")
Such delicate sarcasm, friend **Brutus**. May we take this to mean you have nothing of substance to add? No cites, no evidence, nothing like that? Well, as always, we are charmed by your sparkling wit. Perhaps on your next drive-by, you could bring it? That would be nice. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/68 "2004-09-05T00:57:49Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Such delicate sarcasm, friend **Brutus**. May we take this to mean you have nothing of substance to add? No cites, no evidence, nothing like that? _You_ talking about cites and evidence? What, is ‘Talking Points Memo’ down or something, Mr.He-Who-Cites-The-Blog-Without-Shame? Well, sorry. I have no blog to offer as a cite. I have no ‘[HOLYPOOPIHATEGWBUSH.org](http://HOLYPOOPIHATEGWBUSH.org)’ to offer as a cite. But I do have [MSNBC:](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4771873/) > [@](#): > > After playing a tape of the April 1971 appearance in which Kerry said, “I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages — all of this is contrary to laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions,” **Elucidator** , in the spirit of my new-found internationalism and stuff, I call upon you to join me in calling for war crimes investigation of John Kerry. Whaddya say? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/69 "2004-09-05T00:58:07Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Not so fast, Comrade **Scylla**! I for one think this allegation bears some weight, and that John Kerry should be turned over to an appropriate international body, and that this matter should be _fully_ investigated. After all, who better than John Kerry would know if the Swift Boats were involved in war crimes? And by ‘internationalizing’ the matter, we as a nation show goodwill and respect towards the world community. I’m all for the U.S. signing the ICC treaty, and letting the International Criminal Court look into Kerry’s war record – right after they’re done trying Henry Kissinger. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/70 "2004-09-05T01:00:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’m all for the U.S. signing the ICC treaty, and letting the International Criminal Court look into Kerry’s war record – right after they’re done trying Henry Kissinger. 😃 Hey, if Kerry goes too, we will gladly feed Hank to the sharks… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/71 "2004-09-05T01:01:28Z")
And they mustn’t forget to round up every CIA agent who was in any way involved with Pinochet’s coup in Chile. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/72 "2004-09-05T01:23:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And they mustn’t forget to round up every CIA agent who was in any way involved with Pinochet’s coup in Chile. Don’t forget Oliver North and the other Iran-Contra cronies. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/73 "2004-09-05T01:25:41Z")
Now waitaminit. _Somebody_’s gotta run this freakin’ empire. What’s the pay? Do I get options on the next hot IPO? My dog would sure like that South Lawn. Juicy. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/74 "2004-09-05T01:29:44Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > … **Elucidator** , in the spirit of my new-found internationalism and stuff, I call upon you to join me in calling for war crimes investigation of John Kerry. Whaddya say? Because its nothing more than empty cynicism, **Brutus** , and you don’t even pretend otherwise. You going to have us apologize, make some act of contrition, some reparations for those we have wronged? But why not work our way down, whaddaya say, in your new found craving for justice? Who covered up My Lai, **Brutus**? Did you know that, to this very day, we only have _estimates_ for the number of innocent civilians slaughtered…there is no other word, _slaughtered_…by men wearing our uniforms, armed with our taxes, and sent on a mission in our name. Somewhere between a hundred twenty and four hundred something. Did you know that it was months…_months_!..before the news got out, before anyone spoke up. I was ashamed the day I heard it, and I’m ashamed to this day. Think carefully, now, and tell me if you can…what was the justice? What penalty was paid by the guilty? I got $10 says you haven’t the slightest idea. Am I my brother’s keeper? Maybe not. But damn sure you ain’t. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/75 "2004-09-05T01:29:49Z")
On a more serious note, please note that we’ve already had both of my predicted points presented as fact, and note, in continuation of the “John Kerry and Vietnam” thread that, having found themselves pretty much thoroughly refuted on the original “charges” against Kerry, that these current ones just coincidentally happen to match the latest ad by the Swifties, as happened in that thread and as I pointed out there. I’ve got a bridge to sell anyone who believes this is mere coincidence. Such a bargain. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/76 "2004-09-05T01:31:00Z")
[http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/kerryother.htm](http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/kerryother.htm) > [@](#): > > SBV claims that Kerry’s war crime charges are false and that he implicated them and all other soldiers in his anti-war days. Perhaps SBV do not read articles that are not to their liking - like those talking about the My Lai massacres, the Tiger Force massacres and the Thanh Phong massacres (among many others which are cited in classified military documents). Moreover, Kerry never named any names when he spoke of war crimes committed in Vietnam. Kerry never stated that all American soldiers were war criminals. One wonders what part of their service taught SBV to lie this blatantly. > SBV and its members like Lonsdale are apparently so enraged with Kerry, that Kerry “lost the war” for them and “grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct of American soldiers…”; then, how come they happily and forcefully supported Kerry back in 1996? SBV also says that “For more than thirty years, most Vietnam veterans kept silent as we were maligned as misfits, addicts, and baby killers. Now that a key creator of that poisonous image is seeking the Presidency we have resolved to end our silence.” Well, this is absurdly false. Some of them DID speak out in 1996, in favor of Kerry! But of course I see Kerry is not a saint too: From the interview **Brutus** quoted: > [@](#): > > MR. RUSSERT: But, Senator, when you testified before the Senate, you talked about some of the hearings you had observed at the winter soldiers meeting and you said that people had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and on and on. A lot of those stories have been discredited, and in hindsight was your testimony… > > SEN. KERRY: Actually, a lot of them have been documented. > > MR. RUSSERT: So you stand by that? > > SEN. KERRY: A lot of those stories have been documented. Have some been discredited? Sure, they have, Tim. The problem is that’s not where the focus should have been. And, you know, when you’re angry about something and you’re young, you know, you’re perfectly capable of not–I mean, if I had the kind of experience and time behind me that I have today, I’d have framed some of that differently. Needless to say, I’m proud that I stood up. I don’t want anybody to think twice about it. I’m proud that I took the position that I took to oppose it. I think we saved lives, and I’m proud that I stood up at a time when it was important to stand up, but I’m not going to quibble, you know, 35 years later that I might not have phrased things more artfully at times. You did notice the time of the interview, no? April 18, 2004 I tell you! I want to have a dollar for every time I see a right-winger display the “blind to timelines syndrome” In this case, I do see that even Kerry acknowledged that some of his testimony was discredited a while ago, seeing the spectacle of the swifters demanding an explanation now (ignoring the rest of the interview) makes them sound like the media whores they are. And, to bring this whole mess into today’s context: I prefer to have a president that offered white lies to end a war, than a president that lies to get us into one. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/77 "2004-09-05T01:39:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > …Am I my brother’s keeper? Maybe not. But damn sure you ain’t. Of course I don’t expect Mssr.Kerry to be brought up on war crimes charges. Having a bit of fun, I was. But you danced around **Scylla** ’s post, ignoring the bulk of it. You gave us a impassioned cry, nay, plea! for a cite, and you got it. _In John Kerry’s own words_, nonetheless. The fellow admits to it! And you then promptly ignore the original matter. ‘Dishonest debater’ comes to mind. I _would_ sacrifice Henry Kissenger, though, if that noble sacrifice would somehow force you to stay on topic for once, or at least not be so damned disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/78 "2004-09-05T01:42:17Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > You did notice the time of the interview, no? > April 18, 2004 Why GOSH **GIGObuster** that was before the SBVT even held their first press conference, before anyone had ever heard of them! ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/79 "2004-09-05T01:48:20Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > You did notice the time of the interview, no? You did see that the relevant excerpt was from a taped April 1971 interview, no? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/80 "2004-09-05T01:52:36Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > You did see that the relevant excerpt was from a taped April 1971 interview, no? If you want to continue ignoring what Kerry replied, when confronted with that, only an ostrich would be proud of your behavior. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037.md?page=5)