# New SBVFT ad -- will we never put Vietnam behind us? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 3, 2004, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037 "2004-09-03T22:48:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/81 "2004-09-05T02:03:17Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > If you want to continue ignoring what Kerry replied, when confronted with that, only an ostrich would be proud of your behavior. You mean the bit you quoted? I am struggling to see how it is in any way relevant to whether or not John Kerry participated in war crimes. The dutiful reader will note that I did not address the larger issue of war crimes in Vietnam at all, nor will I address that red herring. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/82 "2004-09-05T02:04:01Z")
Based on the content of posts on this thread so far, I am not optimistic about our putting Vietnam behind us. Not before November, anyway. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/83 "2004-09-05T02:10:10Z")
OK. **Brutus** , come to Jesus time. Give us the cite, show us the proof of where Kerry admits to direct personal involvement in war crimes. I’ll wait right here. 'Cause I’ve heard this bandied about, as though it were a proven, incontrovertible fact, no question about it. So bring it. Show us what you got. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/84 "2004-09-05T02:12:18Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Don’t forget Oliver North and the other Iran-Contra cronies. If you’re going to start at the beginning and the top, you logically must first prosecute Jimmy Carter, who of course as President authorized various horrible deeds in Central America. I’d suggest that Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon are guilty of far greater crimes but they’re dead, and so is Reagan. Since Carter was before Bush, start with him and his cabinet. Getting serious, I don’t think it’s possible for an honest discussion of Vietnam to take place. Those involved with it clearly can’t fully deal with the truth of the criminal nature of the war and various events that transpired there. It’s a wound that won’t heal in our lifetimes. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/85 "2004-09-05T02:14:08Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > You mean the bit you quoted? I am struggling to see how it is in any way relevant to whether or not John Kerry participated in war crimes. The dutiful reader will note that I did not address the larger issue of war crimes in Vietnam at all, nor will I address that red herring. Yes, Kerry acknowledging that parts of that testimony were not accurate is not important, :rolleyes: taking into account the context when he said that, has to be ignored too… [dr evil] riiiiiiight! [/dr evil]. Better to trust the swifters, that somehow, also ignored what Kerry said already on this point. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/86 "2004-09-05T02:19:04Z")
Do you know what he’s talking about, **GIGO**? Which quote is it that they claim states that he was personally, directly responsible for war crimes? I woulda thought something like that would be a real blockbuster. Anybody? ‘Cause I’m really curious now, and don’t want to go Googling all over Creation just to find some two-bit piece o’ crap from the Swifties again. Is that it, or is it something else? Anybody? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/87 "2004-09-05T02:19:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > OK. **Brutus** , come to Jesus time. Give us the cite, show us the proof of where Kerry admits to direct personal involvement in war crimes. I’ll wait right here. 'Cause I’ve heard this bandied about, as though it were a proven, incontrovertible fact, no question about it. > > So bring it. Show us what you got. Bit of a ‘off’ night, huh? Not really reading and/or comprehending previous posts, huh? Well here it is. Again. [MSNBC: (Bolded are John Kerrys own words, caught on tape. Bolding is mine, to help Comrade **Elucidator** comprehend)](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4771873/) > [@](#): > > After playing a tape of the April 1971 appearance in which Kerry said, “ **I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages — all of this is contrary to laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions** ,” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/88 "2004-09-05T02:29:31Z")
… and here is, again, what Kerry replied about that: > [@](#): > > MR. RUSSERT: You used the word “war criminals.” > > SEN. KERRY: Well, let me just finish. Let me must finish. It was, I think, a reflection of the kind of times we found ourselves in and I don’t like it when I hear it today. I don’t like it, but I want you to notice that at the end, I wasn’t talking about the soldiers and the soldiers’ blame, and my great regret is, I hope no soldier–I mean, I think some soldiers were angry at me for that, and I understand that and I regret that, because I love them. But the words were honest but on the other hand, they were a little bit over the top. And I think that there were breaches of the Geneva Conventions. There were policies in place that were not acceptable according to the laws of warfare, and everybody knows that. I mean, books have chronicled that, so I’m not going to walk away from that. But I wish I had found a way to say it in a less abrasive way. > > MR. RUSSERT: But, Senator, when you testified before the Senate, you talked about some of the hearings you had observed at the winter soldiers meeting and you said that people had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and on and on. A lot of those stories have been discredited, and in hindsight was your testimony… > > SEN. KERRY: Actually, a lot of them have been documented. > > MR. RUSSERT: So you stand by that? > > SEN. KERRY: A lot of those stories have been documented. Have some been discredited? Sure, they have, Tim. The problem is that’s not where the focus should have been. And, you know, when you’re angry about something and you’re young, you know, you’re perfectly capable of not–I mean, if I had the kind of experience and time behind me that I have today, I’d have framed some of that differently. Needless to say, I’m proud that I stood up. I don’t want anybody to think twice about it. I’m proud that I took the position that I took to oppose it. I think we saved lives, and I’m proud that I stood up at a time when it was important to stand up, but I’m not going to quibble, you know, 35 years later that I might not have phrased things more artfully at times. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/89 "2004-09-05T02:36:07Z")
That’s it! That is what you’re talking about! Whew, boy, for a second there, I thought you actually _had_ something! Should have known. But there must be more? Surely you’ve got more than that. We’re talking massacre, and you want an indictment for _arson_? Hell, **Brutus** , Lynndie England’s up on a heavier beef than that! Nah, you got something else, just trying to lull me into complacency then _wham_ - you hit me with the real stuff, something like My Lai, or Son Thang, or some of that Tiger Force stuff in the Toledo Blade. Murder and mayhem stuff. Boy, you sure fooled me! Had me going there, for a second. Good one! ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/90 "2004-09-05T03:32:01Z")
> [@](#): > > … and here is, again, what Kerry replied about that: Where in your cite does St. Kerry say that he DIDN’T take part in activities that violated the Geneva convention, contrary to his 1971 testimony? Bold that part, please. My old eyes can’t make heads or tails out of St. Kerry’s blah-blahs. > [@](#): > > Whew, boy, for a second there, I thought you actually had something! Should have known. Just wow, man. You bend over backwards to accept anything St. Kerry says as God’s own semen and you suck it down like mother’s milk. Awesome. Your devotion to your religion is admirable. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/91 "2004-09-05T03:47:09Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Huh? American POW’s stated that the VC were about to surrender, but didn’t because of anti-war protests? What are you talking about? You rejoinder has no connection to the statement. Yes. I’ve seen such, but since Veterans like Paul Galanti who spent nearly five years in POW camps have their comments posted in forums like Freerepublic and Swiftvets, I doubt you’d bother to care. More importantly, General Giap seems to concur: > **[Newsmax.com - Breaking news from around the globe](https://www.newsmax.com)** > > Newsmax.com reports today’s news headlines, live news stream, news videos from Americans and global readers > seeking the latest in current events, politics, U.S., world news, health, finance, and more. > [@](#): > > Be sure that you don’t and we shall. Your implication that the anti-war movement was treasonous floats on the breeze like a fart from a brontosaurus. As soon as you categorically deny such an intention, we can move on. But you will not get away with stating it, implying it, hinting at it, or sidling up to it. Period. I’ve no more made the accusation than you’ve accused my mother of being French. Until such time as I do, kindly can the indignace. Meaningless and empty threats concerning accusations that I haven’t made except in your mind have no place here. I resent your attempt to mischaracterize my statements. > [@](#): > > But you yourself claim that the issue is not falsification, but a lack of due diligence in verification. Might you stick to one charge at a time? That would be nice. The charge of negotiation is absurd, Kerry was not empowered to negotiate, he knew that, the NV knew that, how could he possibly have “negotiated”? No. As I’ve demonstrated, Kerry both falsified testimony and statements to the press **and** failed to exercise due diligence in the evidence he did gather, and I feel free to point both out simultaneously. As to how Kerry engaged in negotiations in which he was not empowered. It’s very simple. He went and he did it. He admitted it in his Fulbright testimony, and in subsequent interviews. Not only does he not deny it, he volunteers it. He met with them and discussed terms of surrender. Read the testimony. I’ve linked it. This point is not in contention. It is specifically an issue because he was not empowered. He took it upon himself to engage in said negotiations. That’s why it’s a crime. > [@](#): > > You don’t read the papers? You didn’t read the aforementioned thread? Pretty much qualifies as “willful ignorance”, don’t you think? The cites are given: NY Times, Wash Post, LA Times, etc. Your cites are Freeper, Swifties, Freeper, Swifties. Well, if you are unwilling to accept cites from Freerepublic of Swiftvets I don’t see how you can expect me to accpept the NYT word for it. Doubly this is the case when the the cites in question fail to fully investigate their claims, as I’ve shown by example with the Billings gazette. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/92 "2004-09-05T03:48:51Z")
> [@SPOOFE](#): > > Where in your cite does St. Kerry say that he DIDN’T take part in activities that violated the Geneva convention, contrary to his 1971 testimony? Bold that part, please. My old eyes can’t make heads or tails out of St. Kerry’s blah-blahs. To me this is clear: in 1971 (and I wonder if the taped thing came from his testimony, and not in other setting then) he did say that he participated in those things, but this was not the whole truth: He said so in this interview in April 2004, there was a stupid war going on, and it had to be stopped. He said those things while a member of Veterans against the war, and he clearly says that he regrets his hyperbole and the fact that some testimony was discredited, to me that is enough, and it should have been enough for the stupid swifters, and as I said before: **I prefer to have a president that uses a white lie to end a war than having one that lies to gets us into one.** ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/93 "2004-09-05T03:48:57Z")
Well, you guys got one point on your side, for sure! Damn good bet ol’ GeeDubya didn’t take part in any “war crimes”. Maybe stiffed a hooker for a twenty dollar blowjob, maybe rolled over on his coke dealer…but he made _damn_ sure he wasn’t gonna be involved in anything yucky like Kerry was! Gotta admire a man who knows his own limitations like that. Well, at least **SPOOFE** does. Can’t say that I do. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/94 "2004-09-05T03:48:58Z")
Partcial quotes are deceptive. Here’s the whole quote in question: > [@John Kerry](#): > > “I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones,” he told “Meet the Press.” “I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used fifty calibre machine guns…I took part in search and destroy missions, in the . All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley [found guilty in the My Lai massacre], are war criminals.” Placed in proper context, I fail to see why anyone would find any of the above surprising to anyone even vaguely familiar with the Vietman War. Sure, he sounds more conciliatory 30 years down the line, but on the whole, what he said then, is well-documented now. For instance, a bit more info on [Free Fire Zones](http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/free-fire-zones.html) > [@](#): > > In the mid-1960s, when I was covering the war in Vietnam for the Associated Press, U.S. commanders were issued wallet-size cards bearing the warning to “use your firepower with care and discrimination, particularly in populated areas.” Often, these cards ended up in a pocket of a pair of tropical fatigues, where they remained, ignored, for the duration of the bearer’s tour of duty. > > The intention of the Department of Defense in issuing the cards was to help prevent jittery U.S. soldiers from mistakenly, or intentionally, declaring a suspect village a “free fire zone,” then destroying it and its residents. All too often, postmortem investigations revealed that such zones had been peaceful and should not have been assaulted. This type of incident with its attendant hostile publicity—My Lai was perhaps the most infamous, if not necessarily the most egregious—was a recurring nightmare of the military high command and a succession of U.S. administrations. > > But the cards only served to accent official naiveté. In reality, U.S. troops in Vietnam seldom knew with any certainty which villages were friendly, siding with the Americans and their Saigon-based allies, and which supported the Hanoi-backed Viet Cong Communist guerrillas. > > \ > > \*\*According to an article by Maj. Mark S. Martens of the U.S. Army’s Judge Advocate-General’s Corps and a distinguished graduate of the U.S. Military Academy, Oxford University, and Harvard Law School, all these rules were “radically ineffective.” Often they were simply ignored. In some cases, illiterate peasants couldn’t understand leaflets dropped to warn them that their villages would soon become a free fire zone. In other cases, hurried, forcible evacuations left large numbers of defenseless civilians behind, to be killed by bombing, shelling, small arms assaults, or burning. “The only good village,” went one bit of cynical GI wisdom, “is a burned village.” > > Ineffective efforts to rein in the GIs’ propensity to create free fire zones in Vietnam resulted in a sense among many Vietnamese as well as Americans that U.S. forces were undisciplined. **More important, perhaps, the widely touted grand plan to capture the “hearts and minds” of the Vietnamese was immeasurably diminished by the perception—let alone the outbreaks of reality—that Americans did not value Vietnamese lives.** Who’s ultimately to blame? I refer you back to the “Yamashita Standard,” summarized by **'luc** in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5236392&postcount=47). Anyway, time travel is all well and fine, but seeing how the whole Iraq situation has unfolded I can’t help but be amazed at how little knowledge was actually gained from that rather dark chapter in American history. Certainly not much on the rather important issue of winning the “hearts and minds” of those you invade. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/95 "2004-09-05T03:52:59Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Well, if you are unwilling to accept cites from Freerepublic of Swiftvets I don’t see how you can expect me to accpept the NYT word for it. Doubly this is the case when the the cites in question fail to fully investigate their claims, as I’ve shown by example with the Billings gazette. Please! When one of the member of free republic turn then to be the author of the swifter’s book, you should realize you are using circular quoting, which is similar to circular logic, only more silly. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/96 "2004-09-05T04:07:43Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > IRRELEVANT, because **he wasn’t there to witness what he claims**! Liars. Buncha damn liars. (Shayna here is referring to Gardner) Once again, there is a very simple explanation for this. One only can come to the conclusion that Gardner is a liar based on the grounds you describe if one seeks that assumption and then stops there. If one actually employs due diligence and seeks to understand what Gardner testifies to, there is no contradiction. One has to selectively examnine the facts to create it. What that article shamedly fails to mention is that we are talking about two boats that Kerry skippered. The first boat is PC-F 44 which Gardner and Kerry served on. IIRC Gardner served on that boat under Kerry’s command for about three months. In other words Gardner served under Kerry’s command on this boat longer than any other enlisted man. This is the boat that Gardner left at dock. Of course Kerry also skippered PV-F 94. The crew with him on that boat served with him a grand total of 54 days. Gardner testifies about events that occured on Pc-F 44. Since he was not on 94 he has no firsthand knowledge about what occured there during February and March of 1968. Gardner’s testimony solely consists of the time he served under Kerry which was November 1968 through about January 23, 1969 thus excluding the Rasmussen incident. There is no contradiction. I have done this from memory, but you are free to reverify it. I mention this in detail with dates and boat names, because the article you cite originally struck me as pretty much putting the nail into Gardner’s testimony until I actually checked out what Gardner was talking about. Hopefully, you will go to the effort to verify what I just said and see that it is largely correct and concede that this was a very one-sided article specifically constructed to selectively present facts in order to discredit Gardner’s otherwise damaging testimony. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/97 "2004-09-05T04:11:40Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > …More importantly, General Giap seems to concur:… You really ought to know better than to depend on Ollie North, **Scylla** , old top. Not your best move, you know…. [http://www.thedailystar.com/opinion/letters/2004/04/lt0416.html](http://www.thedailystar.com/opinion/letters/2004/04/lt0416.html) “…North’s claim has been repeated as gospel in numerous articles, blogs, commentaries and pseudo-news reports, despite the fact the Giap memoir is bogus. According to [WashingtonDispatch.com](http://WashingtonDispatch.com) columnist Greg Lewis, who researched the alleged quotation, _“No such volume exists.”_…” (emphasis gleefully added…) “…For that matter, I haven’t been able to verify through Fox News that Colonel North actually made the comments he is said to have made and which I repeated…In the past, Gen. Giap is alleged to have made similar statements about Jane Fonda and Walter Cronkite, though there is no verifiable evidence that he ever did. Revisionist historians take note. Check your sources, no matter how much you want to believe the lie…” Walter F. Wouk, Cobleskill Amen. White wine with crow, is it, **Scylla**? ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/98 "2004-09-05T04:19:02Z")
Wow. Just from reading what was posted here, all that nonsense is, well, nonsense. Gardner himself says he was never present for any of the incidents for which Kerry recieved any of his medals. As that’s what’s in dispute, your details on when Gardner served amount to, well, I don’t know what they amount to. Certainly less than nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/99 "2004-09-05T04:19:28Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > All the things that they claim about Kerry’s actions, are contradicted by the official records, other records recently released confirm what Kerry said, when it was found that the swifters even said that Kerry authored the reports that gave him one or more of the medals, then it was found that other people made reports that corroborated (IIRC there was no proof that Kerry was the author of the reports making this an already reckless claim from part of the swifters) Kerry’s version of events. > > So no, the claims of the swifters were not “careful” in regards for the truth, they were careful in regards to misleading the nation, so on that I can give them points, but how does it fell polishing a turd like the swifters allegations? > > If all this time you were hiding a freeper cave **Scylla** , it is normal that you don’t know about those things, but I think in the back of your mind you realize they were not giving you the whole picture, so on that regard, welcome back. Please don’t insult me by saying I’m hiding in a freeper cave. I’ve examined the evidence quite carefully, on both sides. I’ve taken pain (knowing that I’m partisan) to extend Kerry the benefit of the doubt **as is his due as a decorated war veteran** ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/100 "2004-09-05T04:33:09Z")
Insulting? The context I am using is Plato’s cave, and I also examined the evidence in the side of the critics of the swifters, (google is god) finding O’Neill was a stinky liar when he was saying he was no partisan, was what convinced me the swifters can not even claim sincerity in their beliefs about Kerry. Regarding your points on Gardner: It may be good memory, but coming only from the freeper cave: [http://www.dispatch.com/election/election-president.php?story=dispatch/2004/08/06/20040806-A6-00.html](http://www.dispatch.com/election/election-president.php?story=dispatch/2004/08/06/20040806-A6-00.html) > [@](#): > > Although he did not appear in the ad, Gardner, 56, of Clover, S.C., agreed with those statements — while conceding he was not on the boat with Kerry during the incidents for which Kerry got his medals. And, even though biased, Media matters has the research already made: [http://mediamatters.org/items/200408240001](http://mediamatters.org/items/200408240001) > [@](#): > > as a guest on Michael Savage’s radio show, Savage Nation, on August 2, Gardner said that of Kerry’s three Purple Hearts, he could only attest to the first; Gardner later admitted to Savage that he was “not on the boat with him [Kerry]” when that injury occurred. > > … > > In an apparent attempt to substantiate his status as an eyewitness to key Kerry events, Gardner claimed on Scarborough Country, “[T]hat boat never left the dock that I wasn’t aboard it with John Kerry, never. I was with that boat everywhere we went.” Gardner went on to make assertions regarding the events that occurred on March 13, 1969, involving Kerry’s rescue of Jim Rassmann, for which Kerry received the Bronze Star. Gardner claimed to know that Kerry fled the scene on the river that day while the other three boats stayed and that Kerry then “turned around and came all the way back to pick up Mr. Rassmann that he had thrown off his boat when he took off, when he fled down the canal.” But later in the show, Gardner admitted to not being present that day. When Scarborough attempted to revisit the “March 13, 1969 incident,” Gardner said, “I’m not going to deal with that. Because I wasn’t there.” > > On the August 16 edition of MSNBC’s Hardball with Chris Matthews, Thurlow cited Gardner to substantiate his claim that Kerry’s first Purple Heart “was fabricated and wasn’t based on any factuality at all.” According to Thurlow, Gardner said “that he [Kerry] received an injury due to a mistake he made when he fired an M-79 close aboard and was hit by his own shrapnel” and that “Kerry applied for a Purple Heart that he did not merit.” > > On the August 2 broadcast of Savage Nation, Gardner himself claimed that all of the wounds for which Kerry received Purple Hearts “were superficial wounds, and I mean very superficial, scratches. The very first one is the only one that I can actually attest to because I was there when that wound happened.” But Gardner was not there when Kerry sustained that wound; as noted above, Gardner went on to admit: “I was not on the boat with him but I – in the next three days following that, I was with him on the boat going to take our new position up down there on the seaward operations.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037.md?page=6)