# New SBVFT ad -- will we never put Vietnam behind us? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 3, 2004, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037 "2004-09-03T22:48:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/141 "2004-09-05T18:26:53Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Just keeping the record straight. “Due diligence”, and all that. Just as you say, Mr. Gardner’s testimony is pretty much inconsequential, his significance rests entirely upon the fact that he is the only one of the men who served _directly_ with Sen Kerry (“directly” meaning “on the same boat”, wouldn’t want to “parse words” or “deconstruct”) who is willing to align himself with the Swiftys position. All the rest speak well of him, if not glowingly. > > Good, then! We are in agreement, then, that this part of the Swiftys ads and testimony is, not to put too fine a point on it, a crock of shit. Excellent! It is a good thing to honestly debate these points, and arrive at a concensus, especially when that concensus agrees with one’s original opinion. Please do not put words in my mouth, or make it seem as if I said or agree with something I don’t. I know you don’t like to be called a liar, and if you don’t want me to call you one, you need to stop doing that, because I fairly consider such things lies. My position re: Gardner is that his statements don’t constitute a conclusive case against Kerry. Fair warning. > [@](#): > > But I would like to take this moment of comity to advance a question of opinion, bearing on character: do you think Kerry was sincere? The whole Wintersoldier thing? No I do not think Kerry was being sincere. Had he been sincere he would not have mocked the Marines at Iwo Jima on the cover of his book. Had he been sincere he would have used due diligence in vetting his sources (and his compatriots at VVAW, notably the fighter pilot imposter Al Hubbard.) Had he been sincere he would have wanted John O’neil to testify as O’neil requested. He would have allowed the opportunit for rebuttal. It was an opportunistic move, a springboard into politics. > [@](#): > > Another, more generous interpretation of Sen Kerry’s anti-war activities was that he was sincerely devoted to bringing a halt to a monstrous folly. That he approached the NVietnamese in earnest, hoping to advance the cause of peace. One might well argue that such was misguided, and still accord Sen Kerry the good opinion that his intentions were worthy. That is an alternate interpretation. I don’t share it. > [@](#): > > Yet you cry “treason”! Am I given to understand you hold the opinion that Sen Kerry was deliberately seeking to undermine American resolve, by way of offering “aid and comfort” to the enemy? That his motives were those of a traitor, a concious and deliberate betrayal of our nation? I have no idea what was going on in Kerry’s head when he betrayed himself, his country, his fellow servicemen and those in Pow prison camps and committed treason. I would guess that self-interest would be the primary motivator. In the final analysis I really don’t care why. The fact that he did it is enough. > [@](#): > > I am fully aware that this is a question of opinion and conscience, I ask for no cite, no link, beyond your own personal belief. > > What say you? Do you stand by your previous accusations, or no? Yes, I do. That’s my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/142 "2004-09-05T18:35:30Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > …is this guy a liar, too? If one did not hold you in such high esteem as I do, one might almost suspect a bit of disingenuousness. Yes, one very well might. Col. Day was a prisoner of war, and highly decorated. Does this mean he was privy to the strategic discussions of the N Vietnamese? Kurt Vonnegut was a prisoner of the Germans in WWII, does that mean his analysis of the strategic and diplomatic position of the Nazi regime must be taken as definitive? Other than seeking to slur and besmirch Sen Kerry, have you any purpose to this? Does it prove anything at all? “Is this guy a liar too?” Perhaps a better question is directed to you: “Is this sort of thing what you’re reduced to?” ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/143 "2004-09-05T18:40:16Z")
**elucidator** , you’re being naive. You’re dealing with someone for whom dissent = treason. To quote from his hero of the day, Bud Day: > [@](#): > > I draw a direct comparison of General Benedict Arnold of the Revolutionary War, to Lieutenant John Kerry. Both went off to war, fought, and then turned against their country. General Arnold crossed over to the British for money and position. John Kerry crossed over to the Vietnamese **with his assistance to the anti-war movement** , and his direct liaison with the Vietnamese diplomats in Paris. His reward- Political gain. Senator?United States. Note that his crossing over started with his assistance to the antiwar movement, _not_ his talks with the Vietnamese. Forget this. You can’t reason with someone who thinks scum like this should be listened to for any reason. For people like this, liberty isn’t just dispensable, it’s a positive hindrance. Further note: McCain has no chance of ever advancing in the Republican party beyond where he is now, unless of course he completely jettisons his conscience. That’s been done before, Lord knows, so I guess we’ll just have to wait and see what transpires on that front. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/144 "2004-09-05T18:45:28Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > How about one of our most decorated soldiers, former POW Colonel Bud Day? > > Is Front Page magazine an ok cite? > > [http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14898](http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14898) > is this guy a liar, too? How about we just call him what he is? A rabid partisan hack hell-bent on slandering Senator Kerry. [DesMoinesRegister](http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040831/OPINION04/408310305/1038) > [@Colonel Day](#): > > In a recent statement, Day said Kerry’s claims of alleged misdeeds by U.S. soldiers caused the Vietnamese communists to believe that if they hung on during the war, they would win. Day is a former Florida State Republican Committee member who has endorsed Bush for re-election. In 1984, Day was national chairman of Veterans for Reagan, and in 1992 he campaigned nationally for President George H.W. Bush. > > “Kerry cast a long, dark shadow over all Vietnam veterans with his outright perjury before the Senate concerning alleged atrocities in Vietnam. His stories to the Senate committee were absolute lies . . . fabrications . . . perjury . . . fantasies, with NO substance,” Day wrote. > > “I draw a direct comparison to General Benedict Arnold of the Revolutionary War to Lieutenant John Kerry,” Day wrote. “Both went off to war, fought, and then turned against their country. General Arnold crossed over to the British for money and position. John Kerry crossed over to the Vietnamese with his assistance to the anti-war movement and his direct liaison with the Vietnamese diplomats in Paris. His reward. Political gain. Senator. United States.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/145 "2004-09-05T18:50:47Z")
Yes, **Scylla** is reduced only to arguments to emotion. Of course, good that he has realized that the “evidence” he talked at the beginning turned to be at best “hypothesis” of the swifters, and very weak ones at that. Even after all those scyllian contortions, the swifters remain liars. Going back to the big picture: I have to say also that calling Kerry’s actions, after his tours of duty, treasonous, doesn’t even pass the hypothetical smell test, by the pedantic and “silly” fact that he was never taken prisoner or accused, or given a warrant for his arrest as a traitor. All this accusation is just that: an accusation, and based on the history of that sordid era, a weak one at best. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/146 "2004-09-05T19:25:31Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > …The whole Wintersoldier thing? No I do not think Kerry was being sincere. Had he been sincere he would not have mocked the Marines at Iwo Jima on the cover of his book. Had he been sincere he would have used due diligence in vetting his sources (and his compatriots at VVAW, notably the fighter pilot imposter Al Hubbard.) Had he been sincere he would have wanted John O’neil to testify as O’neil requested. He would have allowed the opportunit for rebuttal… I don’t mean to restrict my question to that, but it is as good a springboard as any. He “mocked” the Marines at Iwo Jima? Oh, my! But friend **Scylla** , in his haste to defend all that is good and decent, has once again neglected to provide a link. Allow me: > **[Newsmax.com - Breaking news from around the globe](https://www.newsmax.com)** > > Newsmax.com reports today’s news headlines, live news stream, news videos from Americans and global readers > seeking the latest in current events, politics, U.S., world news, health, finance, and more. Here you can see the picture that he refers to. His use of the word “mock” is open to question, to say the very least. One might very well take the opinion that the staging of the picture refers to the famous photo of the flag raising at Iwo Jima. I do myself, I think that is clear. But to me, the picture is intended to a different purpose altogether: that a new variety of veteran has sprung up, a dissenting veteran, but a veteran every bit as worthy, every bit as patriotic as any who have come before. He is welcome to his opinion, but there is the picture, you may judge for yourself. As to “due diligence”, friend \*\*Scylla \*\* insists that Sen Kerry was responsible to research all the testimony of the WinSol event. We have his word on this, he has scarce else. Sen Kerry was reporting on what he heard. Did anyone ask him “Have you vetted all these people, can you attest to their bona fides?” Indeed, why should they? A Senate panel has vastly more resources than Sen Kerry could possibly muster, if they wanted to know, they need not ask him. Perhaps this is the work of that treasonous scoundrel, Sen Fullbright? And the dastardly Senators Symington, Pell, and Javits, none of whom, in their treachery, sought any further “due diligence”. Have they no share in this, given that their resources wildly outmatch Kerry’s? Kerry’s testimony is available, will **Scylla** be so kind as to point out the passage wherein Kerry vouches for their reliability? > [@](#): > > …He would have allowed the opportunit for rebuttal… I did not know this! How extraordinary! Kerry ruled O’Neil’s testimony inadmissable before the Senate panel? Really?! Wow! I had no idea a mere witness held such power! Friend \*\*Scylla \*\* can, no doubt, substantiate this rather exceptional claim, that Kerry had the authority and power to forbid testimony from O’Neill. Or, perhaps like so many of his previous claims, this one is not subject to the rules of “due diligence” that he so forcefully embodies. ---
**Author:** ![absoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@absoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/absoul)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/147 "2004-09-05T19:34:05Z")
Required reading: [Snopes article regarding John Kerry’s Vietnam War service medals](http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp) ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/148 "2004-09-05T19:55:23Z")
This just in: [ **Pentagon investigates Kerry’s war medals** September 6, 2004](http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/09/05/1094322645201.html): The inquiry is to be carried out by the Inspector-General’s office of the US Navy, for which Senator Kerry served as a Swift Boat captain for four months in 1968, making two tours of duty. He was wounded in action and subsequently awarded three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a Bronze Star. But, for the past month, the details of Senator Kerry’s military service in Vietnam have become shrouded in a controversy that the navy now feels warrants a full-blown search for the truth. …the US Navy has now agreed to a request by Judicial Watch, a bipartisan lobby group, for a full inquiry. Judicial Watch is calling for the navy to report before the elections, but navy officials are so far refusing to give any timetable for the inquiry. The group’s president, Tom Fitton, sought an investigation in August into the “determination and final disposition of the awards granted to Lieutenant (junior grade) John Forbes Kerry, US Naval Reserve”, in response to the Swift Boat Veterans’ allegations. A navy spokesman confirmed on Friday that the Inspector-General’s office at the Pentagon had authorised the inquiry. “There’s a feeling that it’s time to deal with this thoroughly, once and for all,” an official said. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/149 "2004-09-05T20:10:35Z")
Been there, had that done to him. > **[Breaking News, World News, US and Local News - NY Daily News - New York Daily...](https://www.nydailynews.com/)** > > Find breaking US news, local New York news coverage, sports, entertainment news, celebrity gossip, autos, videos and photos at nydailynews.com. > [@](#): > > …The Republican chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee said yesterday that John Kerry “deserved” his combat medals for heroism in Vietnam, which some vets have disputed. > Sen. John Warner, an ex-Navy secretary under President Richard Nixon, particularly defended the process by which Kerry won his highest honor, the Silver Star. > > “I’d stand by the process that awarded that medal, and I think we best acknowledge that his heroism did gain that recognition,” Warner (R-Va.) told CNN’s “Late Edition.”… ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/150 "2004-09-05T20:13:11Z")
Well, money talks, bullshit walks. But, bring on that investigation I say! After seeing how the accusations are reduced to lies and hypotheticals, my impression is that Kerry will be vindicated. Problem is, I do think this “investigation” will drag until after the election, which is the indented plan IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/151 "2004-09-05T20:15:13Z")
In other news: [**TIGER FORCE Ex-officer may face justice for atrocities Army lawyer calls for war-crime charge**](http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040905/NEWS08/409050410/-1/NEWS) September 5th, 2004 Three decades after an Army platoon repeatedly executed unarmed civilians and prisoners in Vietnam, a military lawyer has recommended the unit’s former commander be brought up on a war-crime charge. In what would be an unprecedented event, retired Maj. James Hawkins could face a military court-martial regarding his actions commanding a platoon known as Tiger Force that killed hundreds of unarmed men, women, and children 37 years ago, The Blade has learned. Mr. Hawkins was among 18 former Tiger Force soldiers accused by Army investigators of crimes ranging from murder and assault to dereliction of duty during a 4 1/2-year Army investigation between 1971 and 1975. But the case was dropped by the Pentagon and concealed from the public until revealed in The Blade series, which was awarded the Pulitzer Prize. Records show that two soldiers in the platoon, Lt. Donald Wood of Findlay, and Sgt. Gerald Bruner of Colon, Mich., tried to stop the atrocities but were transferred from the platoon after they complained to superiors. As a result of the Army’s investigation completed 29 years ago, murder charges were recommended against Mr. Hawkins and another high-ranking platoon member, Sgt. Harold Trout. After avoiding charges in 1975, the pair were promoted and eventually retired with full military pensions. Army investigators recommended in June, 1975, that Mr. Hawkins be charged with the murder of the carpenter, identified in The Blade series as Dao Hue. Five months later, Mr. Hawkins was summoned to the Pentagon with his supervising general, William Maddox, and told the case would be closed, Mr. Hawkins has said. A note in his Army criminal file says that “no beneficial or constructive results would be derived from criminal prosecution.” Mr. Hawkins, by then a helicopter pilot, was promoted to major, retired in 1978, and began collecting his military pension. He was immediately rehired by the Army as a civilian flight instructor in Alabama, retired in 2001 to collect a second government pension, and moved to Florida. ---
**Author:** ![laigle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/152 "2004-09-05T21:41:37Z")
So we’re going after the guys that did the dirty work. Necessary I’ll grant, but it’s a bit like Nuremberrg with Himmler as a state’s witness. When is it going to be Kissinger’s turn? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/153 "2004-09-05T22:01:53Z")
Regarding Sen Kerry’s “treasonous negotiations” with the NVietnamese in Paris: Googling this is a tough row to hoe. Page after page of the sort of cites **Scylla** seems to regard as the very font of truth, i.e., FreeRepublic, SwiftVets, and the ubiquitous slime, Mr. Corsi, who’s opinions have already recieved far more attention than they are due. > **[Kerry spoke of meeting negotiators on Vietnam](http://archive.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/03/25/kerry_spoke_of_meeting_negotiators_on_vietnam/)** > > In a question-and-answer session before a Senate committee in 1971, John F. Kerry, who was a leading antiwar activist at the time, asserted that 200,000 Vietnamese per year were being "murdered by the United States of America" and said he had gone to... This is as close to a source as I’ve come, and invite further reference: > [@](#): > > …Kerry, now the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, yesterday confirmed through a spokesman that he did go to Paris and talked privately with a leading communist representative. But the spokesman played down the extent of Kerry’s role and said Kerry did not engage in negotiations… > [@](#): > > …“I realize that full well as a study of political science. I realize that we cannot negotiate treaties, and I realize that even my visits in Paris, precedents had been set by Senator [Eugene] McCarthy and others, in a sense are on the borderline of private individuals negotiating, et cetera.” > > Kerry’s statement dealt with the question of whether he was trying to negotiate in Paris as a private citizen and was thus on that “borderline” of what was allowable. A US law forbids citizens from negotiating with foreign governments on matters such as peace treaties. Meehan said Kerry was not negotiating… Sen Kerry says he was aware that he had no capacity, no authority, to negotiate, and denies any attempt to do so. While I can understand a reluctance on the part of his political enemies to take him at his word, unless they can show substantial evidence otherwise, then they must be williing to admit that this is a question of opinion, not fact. Thus far, no such evidence is before us. Further, the reference to Sen McCarthy is intriguing, and I will investigate the question of whether his actions might be regarded as equally “treasonous”. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/154 "2004-09-05T22:12:28Z")
As to Sen Kerry’s claim of awareness of senior officers re: war crimes. [http://atrios.blogspot.com/](http://atrios.blogspot.com/) (Link to blog cite necessary because link leads to required sign-in, but link is provided…) > [@](#): > > …often carried out, Kerry said in 1971, “with the full awareness of officers at all levels.” > > Seemed to him, Means said, his own Swift boat crew had come close to committing a war crime themselves one day. A senior officer, hitching a ride up the coast aboard their Swift boat, had ordered the crew to fire on a small group of unarmed Vietnamese fishermen working their nets in unrestricted waters, Means said. The boat’s commanding officer had refused to comply. > > Was that the way the boat’s commander remembered the incident too, all these years later? Means had to know. > > So he got on the Internet and hunted down Thomas W.L. “Tad” McCall, the retired Navy captain who’d commanded Means’ boat, PCF 88, as a newly minted ensign. Means called him. > > Not only did McCall remember the day in question, and that confrontation off the coast of South Vietnam, he remembered the name of the officer who had given the command to shoot: “Latch” Hoffman himself, then a Navy captain in charge of the entire Swift boat task force in Vietnam… Yes. _That_ Hoffman. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/155 "2004-09-05T22:54:00Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Saying it, doesn’t make it so. Thanks, Scylla, this is one of the clearest and most elegant refutation of the Swifties I’ve heard. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/156 "2004-09-05T23:02:52Z")
Stepping back from the detail that Elucidator and Sylla and others are admirably dueling over, here are my thoughts about the OP. We will not be able to put Vietnam behind us because John Kerry will not allow it. Early in the primary process, Kerry stuck his finger into the air and detected a shift to national security priorities following the September 11th attacks. Knowing he had a three decade record of voting to the left on national security issues, he had no choice but to highlight his Vietnam service. Any attempt to examine his Senate record or to take issue with his anti-war activities is met with accusations of “smearing” or that his “patriotism is being questioned”. His response to Dick Cheney’s speech at the RNC is an example. Kerry said “I’ll leave it to the american people to decide between someone with five deferments and someone with two tours of duty” or words to that effect. If being under fire is a sole qualification to be the President, there are thousands of people who have been under more fire for a longer period of time than Kerry has. Bob Dole comes to mind. Kerry is running a “Wizard of Oz” campaign. “Pay no attention to that liberal behind the curtain.” Someone at the Democratic National Convention thought it was a good idea for Kerry to salute and intone that he was “reporting for duty”. He is now reaping the result of his intentional focus on his Vietnam service as one of the principal underpinnings of his justification for being qualified to be President. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/157 "2004-09-05T23:32:57Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > We will not be able to put Vietnam behind us because John Kerry will not allow it. I think accusations like this are almost (but not quite) as asinine as the whole SBVFT ordeal. Kerry is running for presidency. People wanted to know what kind of leadership qualities he possesses/ed. He gave them his history as a Senator. That wasn’t enough. (“Oh, he has done nothing in his 20 years in the Senate!” :rolleyes: ) So Kerry brought up his leadership qualities during the Vietnam War. When these start to get in the way of the Bush re-election campaigning, “Kerry just won’t let Vietnam die.” Give me a break. If you don’t want to know about someone’s past leadership qualities, then don’t ask. If you _do_ ask, then you have no reason to complain when they give you the details. And don’t forget: one of the reasons this whole Vietnam thing is being dragged-out, is because of all the ridiculous accusations being made about the man’s military record. If he didn’t defend his record to the ‘T’, then I would be suspicious. However, since he _is_ defending his record, people are claiming he won’t “let it go.” Personally, I’m getting much more tired of hearing about how we’re going to “Stay the course”, than I am of hearing about Kerry’s Vietnam record. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/158 "2004-09-05T23:38:17Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > … He is now reaping the result of his intentional focus on his Vietnam service as one of the principal underpinnings of his justification for being qualified to be President. Really? Interesting. So if Kerry hadn’t made an issue of his service, no one else would have mentioned it? Nor would they have attempted to make political hay out of Sen Kerry’s anti-war activism? If he hadn’t made such a big, hairy-ass deal about it, such as Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, Safire, Novak…they would have been decorous and civil as well? The Swifties would never have arose, then? Kerry’s political chicanery forced their hand, did it? Had it not been for Kerry’s trumpeting his military heroism, the Bushiviks would have conducted a campaign defined by prudence and decorum? Is that the premise you set before us? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/159 "2004-09-06T00:21:27Z")
If his followers are any indication, I have no idea why Bush would have any problems with pretzels. You’d think he’d be used to them by now. Personally, I wouldn’t want to face any of them at a game of Twister. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/160 "2004-09-06T02:10:33Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] If one did not hold you in such high esteem as I do, one might almost suspect a bit of disingenuousness. Yes, one very well might. Col. Day was a prisoner of war, and highly decorated. Does this mean he was privy to the strategic discussions of the N Vietnamese? [quote] He references North Vietnamese General Bui Tin. I’m not familiar with the reference though. > [@](#): > > Other than seeking to slur and besmirch Sen Kerry, have you any purpose to this? Does it prove anything at all? Well yeah. I’m puzzled. Beforehand you were questioning my statement that POWS were claiming the war was lengthened and lives were lost, then I showed you a link to the Col. North Diem Bien Phu thing. Then you are like all complaining that I wasn’t providing enough cites to back up what I said (I note looking at further posts that you’re still complaining that I’m not citing enough) Now I give you a cite and your complaining about it, asking what the purpose is. If you ask for cites then you really shouldn’t complain when I go and get them for you, or wonder what they’re for when they’re delivered. I would expect you to acknowledge that I provided a cite. Perhaps you might express some appreciation for the fact that I have done so at your request. > [@](#): > > “Is this guy a liar too?” Perhaps a better question is directed to you: “Is this sort of thing what you’re reduced to?” I thought you wanted this!! The Oliver North thing wasn’t enough for you! I went and I got this for you. You wanted cites. You weren’t happy with the other one. So I got you this. Backing up my statement. Just a few posts down you’re complaining that I’m not providing cites, while here you’re complaining when I do! Which is it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037.md?page=9)