# New Study: 45,000 die in U.S every year from lack of healthcare **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 18, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616 "2009-09-18T17:30:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![pbbth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f9ae1b/32.png) [@pbbth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pbbth)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/261 "2009-09-30T01:38:51Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Who knows how many hours you’ve spent typing angry rants about your financial fears. > > Why aren’t you making a serious effort to look for cites? Wouldn’t you be enormously relieved if you found out you wouldn’t be paying more money, or maybe even paying less? Wouldn’t you like to feel a little less bitter and fearful? Fuck that, if finances are such a huge concern that she is afraid she won’t be able to retire why isn’t she looking for work that pays more than SSDI? Or why isn’t her husband looking for a second job? In my life when I get to a point where finances are a concern for me (and I consider bitching about them ad nauseum online to people who think you are socially retarded to be proof of concern) I either cut back on my expenses or I find a way to increase my income. Taxes are a fact of life and I benefit a lot from the things the government pays for so I have no complaints (and FWIW my total taxes, including state, federal, city, etc. are 41% of my check) so if I feel like I don’t have enough money or I’m not setting enough aside for a rainy day I skip the movie I was going to see and see if they are hiring people to play Mrs. Claus at the mall this holiday season. CC reminds me of that joke about the drowning man waiting for help from God who turned away help from two boats and a helicopter only to die and be told, “What do you mean you were waiting for help, I sent you two boats and a helicopter!” ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/262 "2009-09-30T01:41:31Z")
I’m starting to wonder if the reason **curlcoat** is so coy about her household income, and so quick to defend the insurers, is that her husband works for a health insurance company. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/263 "2009-09-30T01:53:21Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > So you are saying that you are recommending the UHC programs from other countries, even tho you have no information to offer about them? I never said I ‘recommended’ anything, I asked you why things worked in those places and not in the US. You have no answer for that, you just want to move the goalposts over and over again. I have also lived in Britain and continental Europe, so we can talk about tax and healthcare there too if you’d like. Somehow I doubt it will penetrate your thick skull. > [@](#): > > It helps if the anecdote actually addresses the subject. Yes it does, which is why your personal anecdotes are so laughable. You asked about tax burden for the middle class, I gave you an example. I have also backed it up with numerous cites since then. > [@](#): > > You don’t remember very well do you? The most I’ve ever earned is over $30,000 - I’d have to go back and look, but I think it was close to $35,000. And we paid more than that in income tax. Seriously? I read this and laughed and laughed, then laughed some more. I calculated tax rate for a household income of $110,000 - you know, your husbands salary - and it was just under $30,000. I said this was less than you have paid in income tax. $29,826 \< $35.000 I know that loos like scary math, but if you concentrate real hard you might see my point. Really, can someone else (someone sane) look at this and tell me if there was _any_ room for confusion in these numbers? > [@](#): > > It’s nice that you are “sure” that you are going to be able to get and keep a good job after the taxpayers in your country have paid for you to obtain an advanced education as well as your healthcare. God forbid that your parents, your “solidly middle class” parents with no tax worries, pay for any of their child’s expenses. Of course, except for the healthcare we have that here too - we pay taxes so peoples children can go to college, but here that PhD might not equal a good job so the taxpayer may never see a return for that investment. I guess it might be “fair” if the taxpayer had paid to educate my husband, but back then they didn’t. Not that I think that parents should be having children that they expect that the taxpayer should pay to send to college… I never said I was “sure” or that my parents were “solidly middle class” (I said squarely, indicating that they fall in the middle of the middle class range), and I never used the word “fair”, so I’m not sure why you’re cracking out your scare quotes there. Of course something could happen and I would be unable to work - in that case I would have no problem with falling back on the safety net my government provides. Do you really not see why government-supported education helps the general population? I will likely pay back far more in taxes in my life than the relatively small amount the government gives me now. Where do you think doctors and lawyers and researchers come from? Many in both Canada and the US are supported through grants and scholarships. Why should my parents pay for my expenses? I am 30 years old and perfectly capable of taking care of myself. I worked my ass off earning my scholarship with a solid 4.0 at a respected university, so I don’t feel bad about reaping the rewards of that. My parents didn’t expect the government to send me to college, I earned it. Much like \*\*torie \*\*I have no problem availing myself of the systems the country has in place to help me out or improve my life. Scholarships and grants exist in the US, and have for many years. Have you ever heard of the NSF (National Science Foundation)? They provide federal support to US university labs and students to the tune of over 6 billion dollars a year. They were founded in 1950. Presumably your husband was educated after that. There are numerous other funds at the state and federal level. Maybe if your husband wasn’t such a dumbass (and I assume he must be to stay married to you), he could have gotten support too. To pretend that there is no such thing in your country is either disingenuous in the extreme or just very stupid. > [@](#): > > Anyway, you are still sidestepping most of my response to your question. I have a feeling it is because you don’t know any of the answers, you just think that because the UHC works for you, it must work for everyone, everywhere. And you think that just because your system works for you, it must work for everyone, everywhere. Difference is I have provided cites to back mine up (and notice how dozens of people are not arguing with me). Come back with some actual evidence sometime. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/264 "2009-09-30T02:26:09Z")
Hello **Meyer6** For the record, I am very happy about any taxes that I am paying to help you reach your educational goals, and to make sure that you remain healthy enough to do so. My reward will be that you will be in your peak earning (and tax paying) years just about when I’m going to retire, and then you will be helping me out. It would really suck if there was no public insurance option, and then you got sick, didn’t get your degree, and ended up underemployed and unable to contribute to your maximum potential. This is how it generally works, and the majority up here like it this way. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/265 "2009-09-30T03:34:08Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Hello **Meyer6** > > For the record, I am very happy about any taxes that I am paying to help you reach your educational goals, and to make sure that you remain healthy enough to do so. My reward will be that you will be in your peak earning (and tax paying) years just about when I’m going to retire, and then you will be helping me out. > > It would really suck if there was no public insurance option, and then you got sick, didn’t get your degree, and ended up underemployed and unable to contribute to your maximum potential. > > This is how it generally works, and the majority up here like it this way. Thanks! FWIW I rarely make use of UHC beyond basic GP visits, but the peace of mind it provides is huge. Some years ago, after my undergrad but before grad school, I broke my arm in a rather nasty way requiring surgery and months of physio. I have no doubt that in the US I’d still be paying off the bills from this incident, and therefore would not be financially able to go to school. I fail to see how that would be better for anyone involved. Knowing that that couldn’t happen here frees me to worry about other things. And I will happily support you in your retirement years, just like you are probably supporting my Grandpa now. It’s like a…a…society! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/266 "2009-09-30T03:40:00Z")
Or maybe… We’re living in a Socialist Nightmare!!! Aaaghhhhhh!!! ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/267 "2009-09-30T04:12:36Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Or maybe… We’re living in a Socialist Nightmare!!! Aaaghhhhhh!!! Oh right, I forgot that I’m being horribly repressed by our communist lifestyle. That always slips my mind! ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/268 "2009-09-30T04:20:15Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > But you know what? _If_ the reforms happen, and _if_ you somehow lose all your money, _ **being poor will suck a lot less than it did the first time.** _ That’s why these programs are referred to as a ‘safety net’–they won’t keep you from falling, but they’ll make it hurt less when you land. Being poor will suck the same because I don’t take handouts. I didn’t take them then, so I cannot see that I would take them should I be poor again. It’s also not likely that we will ever be that poor, as it would take several things happening at once for that to happen. But, it is entirely possible that we will live long enough to see our retirement eaten up enough by taxes that we will feel a serious pinch. After decades of hard work, saving and responsibility, why is it that we should have to lower our quality of life so we can pay to support people who cannot be bothered to do any of that? There are simply too many people in this country that cannot be responsible for themselves, who run up big balances on charge cards and then force those companies to take pennies on the dollar; who don’t pay the IRS and end up getting much of their debt written off; who buy houses they cannot afford and then either lose it or get bailed out. We pick up that slack, and now you all want us to pick up even more. > [@Blalron](#): > > What do you think of allowing drugs to be imported from Canada? This would drastically reduce the costs of prescriptions in this country. It would personally benefit you. For or against? I have no idea - I wasn’t aware that it couldn’t already be done. Why are the (I assume) same drugs in Canada drastically cheaper than here? > [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Why do you expect sympathy from people who have nothing to do with you? So what if you become poor? So what if you eat catfood from now until you die? You have zero to do with me: explain why your personal situation should be a concern for anyone at all. I don’t expect sympathy from anyone, all I expect is to be able to hold onto enough of what we have earned over the years to be able to maintain something approaching the life we currently live. Now, you explain to me why the personal situation of thousands (if not tens of thousands) of irresponsible people should be a concern for anyone at all who is not a friend or family? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/269 "2009-09-30T04:56:28Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > No, bitch. The subject is that I had to invoke Mod help to get you to stop PMing me, and now you keep bringing up the contents of our PMs. I don’t see how that equates to ME being childish. No, dear, the subject here was the childishness that you exhibited in those PMs and that you continue to show in your posts. Such as saying your had to “invoke Mod help” to get me to stop PMing me. The reason I stopped PMing you is you stopped responding to what I said - nothing else. The Mods would not have done anything to me had I responded to your childish threat, or your childish desire to have the last word. > [@](#): > > There will always be poor people. They cannot be eliminated. We can try to help them, if you want there to be fewer, but it costs money. You cannot have it both ways-- helping fewer people be poor, but spending zero dollars on it. That is your exaggeration, not anything that I have said. I am well aware we will always have poor people and that we should try to help them. What I don’t agree with is the idea of simply supporting them is in any way “helping” them. > [@](#): > > The fact that you are making shit up yet again and putting words in torie’s mouth shows how weak your position is. She never said “society owes her support.” She qualifies for Medicaid for her kid, so she avails herself of it. Well, since you are saying the same thing I did, just “nicer”, apparently I am not making shit up. I have (and still do) qualified for all sorts of government handouts, but I don’t “avail myself” of them simply because they are there. I am aware that the money that pays for these things doesn’t just grow on trees and so I don’t take when I don’t need to. **Torie** got all sensitive and left before we found out much about why her kids are on Medicaid and what she is using it for, but I’d be willing to bet she is using it for non-serious issues. Otherwise, she would have justified her use of Medicaid by explaining that this kid has cancer or that kid has a heart condition or whatever. But no, she lasted all of three or four posts before she was so upset she had to go to another thread to whine about how awful it was that I expect that she explain why her kids are on Medicaid. > [@](#): > > The government is not supporting her. The government is providing health care coverage for her kids. The fact that you can’t see the difference is really your problem. Uh huh. Coming from someone that thinks that taking Medicaid is the same thing as taking Social Security… > [@](#): > > Since you are so much greater in your understanding, why don’t you explain to me what the impact of these laws will be, and why this will be a problem that I should care about? Please include cites. I don’t see why I should bother. You are so biased about all of this that the hours I would have to spend trying to find cites for you would be ignored. Nor do I see any reason why I need to justify my concerns to you. If you want to believe that a bunch of new restrictions and a cheap government alternative won’t negatively affect private insurance companies, you go right ahead. > [@](#): > > Start with the one Max Baucus is supporting. Would that be [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=534047)? > [@](#): > > Sure I can-- zero is an actual number, isn’t it? I don’t see a cite. You demand them from me, yet apparently it is OK with you to just decide something and not provide any reasoning behind it. You don’t even address whether you think it will cost zero just in the beginning or for all time. It’s obvious that all you do is believe whatever sunshine is being blown up your butt about this thing because you want it to happen and you don’t want to think about what it will cost. ---
**Author:** ![torie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@torie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/torie)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/270 "2009-09-30T11:26:09Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Well, since you are saying the same thing I did, just “nicer”, apparently I am not making shit up. I have (and still do) qualified for all sorts of government handouts, but I don’t “avail myself” of them simply because they are there. I am aware that the money that pays for these things doesn’t just grow on trees and so I don’t take when I don’t need to. **Torie** got all sensitive and left before we found out much about why her kids are on Medicaid and what she is using it for, but I’d be willing to bet she is using it for non-serious issues. Otherwise, she would have justified her use of Medicaid by explaining that this kid has cancer or that kid has a heart condition or whatever. But no, she lasted all of three or four posts before she was so upset she had to go to another thread to whine about how awful it was that I expect that she explain why her kids are on Medicaid You need to shut the fuck up bitch, I had every right to get upset. You said nasty horrible things about me and my kids when I told you I was on public insurance. I don’t have to feel guilty and I don’t have to explain my kid’s existences to you. And I am most certainly not going to justify what I use my insurance for to you. Seriously, you tell me I should have aborted my kids and then you have to gall to write me off, “I got all sensitive”? You really are a piece of work. Because you are a fucking stupid, heartless, joyless cunt, I decided it was useless to debate with you. I don’t owe your ass an explanation for shit. ETA: Why didn’t I keep her on my ignore list? Why didn’t I keep her on my ignore list? ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/271 "2009-09-30T14:51:55Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Being poor will suck the same because I don’t take handouts. I didn’t take them then, so I cannot see that I would take them should I be poor again. In this context, it wouldn’t be a “handout,” because _you paid into the program,_ just as you paid into the SSDI benefits you’re receiving now. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/272 "2009-09-30T16:26:01Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > In this context, it wouldn’t be a “handout,” because _you paid into the program,_ just as you paid into the SSDI benefits you’re receiving now. Your mere logic will not work here, mortal. This is the CURLINATOR. To quote **Blalron** : > [@](#): > > She can’t be bargained with. She can’t be reasoned with. She doesn’t feel pity or remorse. And she absolutely WILL NOT STOP, until everyone gives up and the thread is dead. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/273 "2009-09-30T17:57:01Z")
Yeah, I’m done now. Officially. curlcoat, go ahead and get the last word that you so love. I really have better things to do with my energy than argue with someone so utterly devoid of merit in every way. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/274 "2009-09-30T18:06:21Z")
> [@torie](#): > > Because you are a fucking stupid, heartless, joyless cunt, I decided it was useless to debate with you. Reminder: While I understand that you were provoked, the rules say: [QUOTE=Restricted language in the Pit] The following expressions should not be directed at other posters. cunt [/QUOTE] [Restricted language in the Pit - The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508858) No warning issued. **Gfactor** Pit Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/275 "2009-09-30T18:11:35Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I’ve reached the conclusion that when **curlcoat** dies, they’ll find millions of dollars in her mattress, and empty cat food cans and a spoon in her kitchen. That’s not fair. She’s made it clear she likes **dogs**. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/276 "2009-09-30T18:34:30Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > That’s not fair. She’s made it clear she likes **dogs**. Well, not so much if she’s eating their catfood. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/277 "2009-10-01T03:01:37Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > How much time have you actually spent looking for cites, curlcoat? Cites for what? That the US government doesn’t have a good record regarding running programs in budget? That the healthcare program they already have isn’t doing very well? That expecting to be able to pay for the healthcare of hundreds of thousands of people on just what taxes they can get from those making over $350K is unrealistic? Do you really need cites for things like that? > [@](#): > > Wouldn’t you like to feel a little less bitter and fearful? > > Conversely, if we’re all wrong and you’ll be paying more, wouldn’t you love to prove it to us and score some points in this long running argument? I am not bitter or fearful, nor am I looking to “score points”. > [@Rubystreak](#): > > THAT POST WAS NOT ADDRESSED TO YOU. Do you really expect me to believe that? > [@](#): > > ETA: If the insurance companies are actually at risk to go out of business (cite?), then the public option becomes more viable. What in the world makes you think that? Or by viable, do you mean “more likely to be used”? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/278 "2009-10-01T03:32:33Z")
The **Curlinator** has spoken. The **Curlinator** must get in the last word. > [@](#): > > She can’t be bargained with. She can’t be reasoned with. She doesn’t feel pity or remorse. And she absolutely WILL NOT STOP, until everyone gives up and the thread is dead. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/279 "2009-10-01T03:32:53Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > I’m starting to wonder if the reason **curlcoat** is so coy about her household income, and so quick to defend the insurers, is that her husband works for a health insurance company. Coy? **Rubystreak** is the one being coy, and **Meyer** just quoted it. No, my husband doesn’t work for a health insurance company but I used to, which is why I know what some of those restrictions will do to them. > [@Meyer6](#): > > I never said I ‘recommended’ anything, I asked you why things worked in those places and not in the US. You have no answer for that, I had an answer, you just didn’t like it. I said I don’t know why a UHC works in those countries, if it actually does, because I don’t know anything about the conditions there. Apparently, this is hard for you to grasp, so how about this simple example. Most people cannot afford a high mortgage because they have other things to pay out of their paychecks, but if you live in an area where routine expenses are low and don’t really want/need to spend money on anything else, you can afford a higher mortgage than usual. Another example - a rich person can afford a higher mortgage because they have more income coming in. Can you see how these examples apply to countries with UHCs? > [@](#): > > You asked about tax burden for the middle class, I gave you an example. I have also backed it up with numerous cites since then. You gave one cite on what people in BC pay in income taxes, and said that your parents aren’t in danger of losing their house. This says almost nothing about the tax burden of the middle class in Canada. > [@](#): > > Seriously? I read this and laughed and laughed, then laughed some more. I calculated tax rate for a household income of $110,000 - you know, your husbands salary - and it was just under $30,000. I said this was less than you have paid in income tax. Yeah, I misread that. And? Is income tax the only tax they pay in BC? Do they pay both the fed and the province? Perhaps because you are not yet really supporting yourself, you don’t have a grasp on what “paying taxes” means, particularly in the US, most particularly in a state like California. > [@](#): > > I never said I was “sure” “When” you get a job sounds pretty sure. > [@](#): > > or that my parents were “solidly middle class” (I said squarely, indicating that they fall in the middle of the middle class range), Splitting hairs. > [@](#): > > and I never used the word “fair”, so I’m not sure why you’re cracking out your scare quotes there. Scare quotes? No, you may have never used the actual word “fair” but that is the basis of your desire to see a UHC in a country you don’t live in. You all want life to be “fair” for everyone, as if that was actually possible. > [@](#): > > Of course something could happen and I would be unable to work - in that case I would have no problem with falling back on the safety net my government provides. You would have no problem living off the taxpayer? > [@](#): > > Do you really not see why government-supported education helps the general population? I will likely pay back far more in taxes in my life than the relatively small amount the government gives me now. _If_ you get a job. We’ve got tons of government educated folks here without jobs. You know, parent-supported education helps the general population quite a bit more. > [@](#): > > Why should my parents pay for my expenses? I am 30 years old and perfectly capable of taking care of myself. I worked my ass off earning my scholarship with a solid 4.0 at a respected university, so I don’t feel bad about reaping the rewards of that. My parents didn’t expect the government to send me to college, I earned it. Much like \*\*torie \*\*I have no problem availing myself of the systems the country has in place to help me out or improve my life. Huh, this is starting to look like backpedaling. Before it was “the government is paying my way”, now its a scholarship you got due to high grades. So, does Canada pay to send everyone to college? > [@](#): > > And you think that just because your system works for you, it must work for everyone, everywhere. Difference is I have provided cites to back mine up (and notice how dozens of people are not arguing with me). Come back with some actual evidence sometime. Shrug, the system doesn’t work all that well for me either, but I can recognize a bad change when I see it. As for dozens of people arguing, given the bent of this board I’m surprised that anyone agrees with me at all. IRL, I am sure you are aware that there are far more than dozens who do not support a UHC in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/280 "2009-10-01T03:39:09Z")
The Curlinator must reply at length. Everything revolves around the Curlinator. > [@](#): > > She can’t be bargained with. She can’t be reasoned with. She doesn’t feel pity or remorse. And she absolutely WILL NOT STOP, until everyone gives up and the thread is dead. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616.md?page=15)