# New Study: 45,000 die in U.S every year from lack of healthcare **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 18, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616 "2009-09-18T17:30:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![torie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@torie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/torie)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/61 "2009-09-19T18:41:11Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Nobody asks you to “apologize for their existence” Oh Bullshit. Not only are you nasty, but you won’t own the nasty shit you post. > [@](#): > > What we do ask is why it is you don’t want the game stacked against you, yet you have at least two children and apparently no worthwhile education. You have stacked the deck against yourself and now you want me to fund a UHC system for you. Did you miss where I am more than happy to pay for insurance that follows all the requirements I listed above? Go read my post again, except stop stewing about the fact that I dared to reproduce…Go ahead. Read it reaaaaaalllll carefully, I’ll still be here. K, now point out to me where I stated in that post that I want YOU to pay for my health insurance. Go ahead. Oh it’s not there. I’m really sorry that you can’t read. That must be difficult for you. > [@](#): > > Why is it OK for you to choose to have at least two children when you cannot afford to raise them? Because I can afford to raise them. I stand by that even if I can’t afford 400 or more in crappy insurance with a sky high deductible. Not being able to afford something that’s utterly unreasonable does not qualify as ‘not being able to raise my kids’ or ‘expecting you to raise them’. > [@](#): > > No, what you did was selfishly think only of what you wanted - you wanted another kid, so you went ahead and had that surprise, and then you kept the baby instead of putting him out for adoption. That has nothing to do with your children and everything to do with what you wanted. Please. To give up my child and risk severe emotional trauma to avoid maybe three years of government insurance would have been very short sighted. And again you have suggested that I should have had an abortion, but you won’t admit that you think government insurance renders my children’s lives worthless, better never having lived. You are a liar. Dammit, I forgot to follow my own advice. Fuck. Ok, I get it. Something just _compels_ you to answer her insanity. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/62 "2009-09-19T19:07:55Z")
> [@starwarsfreek42](#): > > Wrong. Snip. No, YOU’RE wrong. This is curlcoat you’re talking to. Curlcoat is always right, remember? She’s right and you’re wrong. Every time. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/63 "2009-09-19T19:27:34Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > What percentage of your present disposable income would you be willing to give to make sure everyone was insured? Preferably none, however that doesn’t make me so utterly reactionary that I view any changes at all in the current sucky health care system as a grave threat to my personal well being. There’s a huge space between wanting people to get better health care, and ordering federal troops to confiscate ms. Curlcoat’s mattress stuffins. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/64 "2009-09-19T19:48:57Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I’ll reconsider my opposition to paying to insure everyone in the country. You do realize that most other first world nations are able to “insure everyone in the country” for the low, low price of… uh… about _half_ of what you’re paying now, per capita? This is because your current system is ridiculously broken, and is in desperate need of an overhaul. Ideological opposition to health care reform in the United States warrants a new section in the DSM-IV. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/65 "2009-09-19T19:57:53Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Had any of these or a million other eventualities come to pass, I almost certainly would not be comfortably typing these words. I might be homeless, or institutionalized, or dead. So might you. And so might have I, during the 5-6 years I was uninsured when I was a child, and the seven years I was uninsured as an adult. But did I ever look around and demand that someone else do something about that? No. > [@](#): > > Lack of insurance already costs society a heavy price. We pay this price via costs hidden in every product and every service we buy. Some percentage of the uninsured turn out lucky, like Airman Doors and I. Some other percentage do not. Any actuary could attach real numbers, and we could perhaps then argue substantively about them. How about you have that actuary work on real numbers as to what it would cost society if everyone, or at least a majority, were responsible for themselves as much as humanly possible? If society did things like not celebrating every pregnancy no matter how stupid, not charging things simply because they don’t feel like waiting, not trying to “keep up with the Jones”, not replacing items just because they are out of fashion, not smoking or drinking to excess and on and on. Society pays out for all of the irresponsible things that people do, and for some bizarre reason also condones quite a bit of it. If we could get away from this ME ME and instant gratification problem we’ve had for so long, there would be far less for society to have to clean up later on. > [@](#): > > But for \*\*curlcoat \*\*to characterize your choice and mine as reasonable and intelligent because we got away with it, and characterize someone else’s similar choice as irresponsible because they did not is disgusting. Uh, I said that where? > [@gonzomax](#): > > CURLCOAT makes it very clear. He/she does not care about your health care or lack of it. It does not matter if you live or die. What matters is whether it costs CURLCOAT money. That is what is important. No, what matters to **curlcoat** is holding on to enough of our assets that we don’t go broke in retirement. **Curlcoat** is already paying huge taxes to subsidize the irresponsible sector of society - bailing out idiotic mortgages, MediCal, DentiCal, subsidized housing, AFDC and all of the other programs that are just basically handing people goods/services/money instead of working on getting them to be responsible for themselves. And now you want me to pay so that they can all go to the doctor when they get the flu? At what point to you all plan to stop telling me to pay for all of this? ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/66 "2009-09-19T20:13:09Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > What percentage of your present disposable income would you be willing to give to make sure everyone was insured? What you and so many of the rest of the objectors refuse to recognize is that we, those of us who have jobs and purchase health insurance (whatever our high, middle or low relative income level) \*\*\*are already \*\*\*paying the costs of other people going without. We support indigent care directly through a portion of our tax load, some of which funds fire/rescue, emergency care, and other immediate costs. We also pay increased insurance premiums for the coverage we do have, as the hospital system tries to recover loses due to indigent care through higher prices and then insurance companies pass the costs along to us in turn. On top of that we pay higher prices for goods and services as businesses must recoup increased costs for their share of health insurance made available to employees. And we pay a huge societal cost as early diagnosis and treatment is neglected because of financial concerns, resulting in acute illnesses that require highly specialized critical care to treat, with outcomes that are often much less positive. Poor medical outcomes (lengthy convalescence, disability, long term need for medication, etc.) translate into lowered productivity, reduced ability to support a family, and often a need for even greater societal support, all of which might have been avoided by early treatment. Even given a good medical outcome, financial outcomes for the patient and his/her family are commonly “less than optimum” (scare quotes appropriate) as they so frequently result in bankruptcy. Anyone who doesn’t recognize the net negative effects on our interconnected society doesn’t know enough to participate in the discussion. Granted that it is difficult to uncover many specific instances of outright and immediate death resulting specifically from a lack of health insurance. But illness, and care, and the timing and the cost of that care are all a continuum. It’s kinda like a stairs, and we’re all on it. Some of us are up on the higher steps, and most of us are on some steps loosely describable as middle. Then there are those folks perched precariously on the bottom step. Our current health care “system” (again deliberate use of scare quotes) is a force pushing all of us downward. But for those up high, and even for us in the middle, moving downward a single step probably isn’t a life changing problem. But those folks who were on the lowest step already, due to whatever combination of circumstances their life had so far handed them, those poor bastards are now in the basement, screwed. That’s where the 45,000 estimate comes from. A lessening of positive results across the board, not an outright death sentence for designated individuals. Since my non-discretionary income is already so burdened by the present system, perhaps it is premature to discuss only additions to this cost without making allowance for the savings that would result from universal care. I am not yet at all persuaded that there would actually be any additional cost. ETA-- just read \*\*curlcoat’s \*\*latest vomit, which stands on its own as some of the most gratuitous rationalization for greed and lack of human compassion as I have ever heard-- since the last train wreck involving him/her. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/67 "2009-09-19T20:31:36Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > I am not yet at all persuaded that there would actually be any additional cost. As alluded to elsewhere, [precedent suggests](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_hea_car_fun_tot_per_cap-care-funding-total-per-capita) that the additional “cost” for universal coverage is around -50%. Of course, no American administration would ever suggest the most simple, efficient, and economical system possible, because that’s not what insurers^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Americans want. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/68 "2009-09-19T20:48:54Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > …^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Americans… Whazzat! Is that some totally cool thing everybody knew about months ago but some dumb ol’ trailerpark peckerwood hasn’t heard about, like that “All your burning dog bases are belong to us”? ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/69 "2009-09-19T20:53:40Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > As alluded to elsewhere, [precedent suggests](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_hea_car_fun_tot_per_cap-care-funding-total-per-capita) that the additional “cost” for universal coverage is around -50%. > > Of course, no American administration would ever suggest the most simple, efficient, and economical system possible, because that’s not what insurers^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Americans want. Thank you for an excellent link. I’ll save it for other uses. No point in pulling statistics into this thread, though. When dealing with **curlcoat** , actual facts are, you know, not important. At least they are nowhere near as important as whatever \*\*curlcoat \*\*wants. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/70 "2009-09-19T21:23:37Z")
> [@torie](#): > > Oh Bullshit. Not only are you nasty, but you won’t own the nasty shit you post. No, I will “own” whatever I post. What I won’t do is agree with whatever bigoted spin you put on it. > [@](#): > > Did you miss where I am more than happy to pay for insurance that follows all the requirements I listed above? Go read my post again, except stop stewing about the fact that I dared to reproduce…Go ahead. Read it reaaaaaalllll carefully, I’ll still be here. :rolleyes: Yeah, I saw it. It’s all about what you want. > [@](#): > > K, now point out to me where I stated in that post that I want YOU to pay for my health insurance. Go ahead. Oh it’s not there. Do you or do you not want universal healthcare? > [@](#): > > Because I can afford to raise them. I stand by that even if I can’t afford 400 or more in crappy insurance with a sky high deductible. Not being able to afford something that’s utterly unreasonable does not qualify as ‘not being able to raise my kids’ or ‘expecting you to raise them’. Oh, I see. You can afford to raise your kids except for the “unreasonable” things. But it’s OK for the taxpayers of your state to pay for it, eh? Gotcha. > [@](#): > > Please. To give up my child and risk severe emotional trauma to avoid maybe three years of government insurance would have been very short sighted. And again you have suggested that I should have had an abortion, but you won’t admit that you think government insurance renders my children’s lives worthless, better never having lived. You are a liar. Snort. The fact that I mention that abortion is one of many options to not having children you cannot afford does not in any way translate into your children’s lives are “worthless”. I do notice however that it is all about you again - “my child” and “severe emotional trauma”. > [@](#): > > Dammit, I forgot to follow my own advice. Fuck. Ok, I get it. Something just _compels_ you to answer her insanity. You haven’t answered anything, all you’ve done is prattle on about how important your children are, and how you want this and you want that. The only thing you haven’t addressed is your responsibility to your children. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/71 "2009-09-19T21:25:49Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > …No, what matters to **curlcoat** is holding on to enough of our assets that we don’t go broke in retirement. **Curlcoat** is already paying huge taxes to subsidize the irresponsible sector of society - bailing out idiotic mortgages, MediCal, DentiCal, subsidized housing, AFDC and all of the other programs that are just basically handing people goods/services/money instead of working on getting them to be responsible for themselves. And now you want me to pay so that they can all go to the doctor when they get the flu? At what point to you all plan to stop telling me to pay for all of this? When you’re dead broke is when I’ll be happy for you to pay no more money. But you’ve assured us that you’ve got a hubby with a big income & both of you have been very careful. Even though you’ve decided you’re too good to work any more. Are you really expecting anyone here to extend sympathy to _you_? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/72 "2009-09-19T21:34:05Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > There’s a huge space between wanting people to get better health care, and ordering federal troops to confiscate ms. Curlcoat’s mattress stuffins. Yeah, right where I said that I would support change in insurance laws, but then it’s no fun to notice things that don’t support your extremist views, is it? 😃 > [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > No, YOU’RE wrong. This is curlcoat you’re talking to. Curlcoat is always right, remember? She’s right and you’re wrong. Every time. Except I did say that I was wrong on that one, didn’t I? > [@CannyDan](#): > > No point in pulling statistics into this thread, though. When dealing with curlcoat, actual facts are, you know, not important. At least they are nowhere near as important as whatever curlcoat wants. Stats are fine, I just won’t necessarily agree with whatever spin you want to put on them. Ya know, it’s simply amazing to me that you all get so up in arms about how nasty, crazy (what else?) oh right - selfish, greedy and lacking in human compassion I am, yet you refuse to notice that all of that applies to all of you. You _demand_ that I support this multi-billion dollar experiment, so that you don’t have to fund your own insurance any more - it’s all about what you want to do with my retirement funds. Yet you aren’t nasty, crazy, selfish, greedy and lacking in human compassion? And in the middle of all of this, none of you can be bothered to note how funding these sorts of projects have _failed miserably_ over the decades. No, all you can see is “45,000 dying every year”, as if a UHC would suddenly erase that. Fighting ignorance - ha. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/73 "2009-09-19T21:42:54Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Whazzat! Is that some totally cool thing everybody knew about months ago but some dumb ol’ trailerpark peckerwood hasn’t heard about, like that “All your burning dog bases are belong to us”? Sorry. 1980s BBS hangover. ASCII 08 (Control-H) is the control character for “Backspace.” Too lazy to work out how to force VB to display strikethrough. ---
**Author:** ![torie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@torie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/torie)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/74 "2009-09-19T21:49:11Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > No, I will “own” whatever I post. What I won’t do is agree with whatever bigoted spin you put on it. Then when you are saying that I was wrong for having my children, what else am I supposed to infer? > [@](#): > > :rolleyes: Yeah, I saw it. It’s all about what you want. And it’s all about YOUR money. We’re all looking after are own. My children are probably warmer than your money. 😃 > [@](#): > > Do you or do you not want universal healthcare? I want whatever covers the highest amount of people with the highest personal choice and the best control of costs. We’re still talking about what that system may look like in the US. > [@](#): > > Oh, I see. You can afford to raise your kids except for the “unreasonable” things. But it’s OK for the taxpayers of your state to pay for it, eh? Gotcha. My husband and I pay taxes here too. And when we’re finished with school, we’ll pay more. I won’t bitch about it because I’m grateful it was here when we needed it. > [@](#): > > Snort. The fact that I mention that abortion is one of many options to not having children you cannot afford does not in any way translate into your children’s lives are “worthless”. I do notice however that it is all about you again - “my child” and “severe emotional trauma”. I’m supposed to suffer emotional trauma just to make _you_ happy? You’re not going to live my life. When you suggest that I was supposed to go have an abortion just to make you happy, what the hell else are you saying? My child is better off dead then on public insurance? Seriously, what else am I supposed to deduce? > [@](#): > > You haven’t answered anything, all you’ve done is prattle on about how important your children are, and how you want this and you want that. The only thing you haven’t addressed is your responsibility to your children. My responsibility to my children is to raise them well and release them into the world equipped to make a good life for themselves. I’m doing that. Because my children are very important. They will be good men one day, and we need more good men. I want health reform because I want good fair reasonable coverage not just for me and my kids, but everyone else too. I’m watching a friend of mine suffer for lack of coverage. I want reform for her too. As for me being selfish. Pot. Kettle. Black. 🙂 I’ve answered everything, you just don’t like my answers. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/75 "2009-09-19T21:50:30Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Sorry. 1980s BBS hangover. ASCII 08 (Control-H) is the control character for “Backspace.” Too lazy to work out how to force VB to display strikethrough. [del]It’s the del tag.[/del] ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/76 "2009-09-19T22:05:28Z")
> [@torie](#): > > My husband’s job does not offer insurance, and he works 60 hours a week so we can make it. Forgive me, but something about your posts doesn’t quite pass the smell test. You didn’t mention your “husband” at all in your first post, and you still don’t refer to him as the children’s father. Is he? ---
**Author:** ![MissIntent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/97f17d/32.png) [@MissIntent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MissIntent)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/77 "2009-09-19T22:07:35Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > And now you want me to pay so that they can all go to the doctor when they get the flu? At what point to you all plan to stop telling me to pay for all of this? Let them eat cake. Maybe at the point that people can go to the doctor when they have the flu? You completely ignored Larry Mudd’s point that UHC would actually be cheaper than the current system. Why, because it didn’t support your point? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/78 "2009-09-19T22:14:47Z")
> [@MissIntent](#): > > You completely ignored Larry Mudd’s point that UHC would actually be cheaper than the current system. Why, because it didn’t support your point? Whatever clusterfuck bill comes out of Congress appears increasingly likely to contain the worst of both systems. We need to be open to completely scrapping the existing system and basing our new health care system on models which have been proven to work. And we aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/79 "2009-09-19T22:37:12Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Ya know, it’s simply amazing to me that you all get so up in arms about how nasty, crazy (what else?) oh right - selfish, greedy and lacking in human compassion I am, yet you refuse to notice that all of that applies to all of you. You _demand_ that I support this multi-billion dollar experiment, so that you don’t have to fund your own insurance any more - it’s all about what you want to do with my retirement funds. Yet you aren’t nasty, crazy, selfish, greedy and lacking in human compassion? And in the middle of all of this, none of you can be bothered to note how funding these sorts of projects have _failed miserably_ over the decades. No, all you can see is “45,000 dying every year”, as if a UHC would suddenly erase that. > > Fighting ignorance - ha. Fighting the ignorant, part the next: Nowhere have I suggested that you should pay for my insurance. You can take your strawman and shove it, for all of me. The discussion is about health care reform to cover those who are presently uninsured or under insured. Imbecile. As for being a failed experiment, the facts contradict your assertion. See the link provided by **Larry Mudd** , which demonstrates that we already pay far more per capita than anyone (actually twice as much as all except 5 other countries, and 1.4 times as much as even the next closest). Maroon. All I can see is 45,000 annual fatalities and your craven disregard for unnecessary loss of life and needless suffering. Cretin. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/80 "2009-09-20T01:54:35Z")
> [@torie](#): > > Then when you are saying that I was wrong for having my children, what else am I supposed to infer? How about if you don’t infer anything and just go with what I actually say? The fact that it was irresponsible for you to have had children when you cannot afford to raise them has zero to do with them as individuals. > [@](#): > > And it’s all about YOUR money. However, I am not expecting _you_ to give up anything in order to make _my_ life easier. > [@](#): > > I want whatever covers the highest amount of people with the highest personal choice and the best control of costs. We’re still talking about what that system may look like in the US. Uh, well, that would most likely be what we already have, with a few adjustments in the insurance laws. > [@](#): > > I’m supposed to suffer emotional trauma just to make _you_ happy? :rolleyes: It has nothing to do with making me or anyone else happy, it is all about being _a responsible adult._ And one of the major things that a responsible adult doesn’t do is take on long term expensive commitments when they are unable to pay for them. > [@](#): > > My responsibility to my children is to raise them well and release them into the world equipped to make a good life for themselves. I’m doing that. By starting them out on public assistance? > [@](#): > > Because my children are very important. They will be good men one day, and we need more good men. If I hadn’t seen so many mommies say these things, I would be boggled right now. However, it never ceases to amaze me how unrealistic parents like you are. Your children are how old? And you know that they are “very important” (not important to you, but very important), and that they will be good men one day, the kind of men we need more of. Your self centered arrogance is mind blowing - you insist that your children are important to the future, when at the rate you are going you’ll be doing good if they just end up being 9-5 drones. Really now, why are your children supposed to be more important to me than me paying my mortgage, when you didn’t even think they were important enough to wait to have them after you and your husband were done with school and had at least decent incomes? > [@](#): > > As for me being selfish. Pot. Kettle. Black. 🙂 You think it is selfish of me to want to be able to continue to pay my bills? > [@](#): > > I’ve answered everything, you just don’t like my answers. You haven’t answered why you thought it was a good idea to have kid number one. You haven’t answered why it is you think you can afford to raise them, when you cannot afford medical care for them. You haven’t answered why neither you nor your husband could be bothered with educations until after you had two kids (and found out how much they cost). Basically, all you’ve said is “I’ve had the kids, now you have to deal with it” which is the same old story. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616.md?page=5)