# New Study: 45,000 die in U.S every year from lack of healthcare **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 18, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616 "2009-09-18T17:30:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/141 "2009-09-22T17:29:29Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > Curlcoat, can you answer a couple of serious question? > > 1. Can you explain exactly why Canadians can pay half as much per capita for health care, have UHC, not have people dying in the street, \ > > 2. What would have happened to you had you not met and married your husband? \? I’ll help out here, as it will be a while before our respondent can get back to you (but I’m sure she’ll get the last word in) So, I will attempt to answer in the appropriate Curlcoat manner: > [@](#): > > 1. The US is different from other countries. We have subcultures who don’t want to work. > > 2. I work hard for everything I’ve got, and I’m sure I would have found some rich man to provide for my entitlements. So why don’t you get a job and stop having children? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/142 "2009-09-22T17:36:36Z")
> [@MissIntent](#): > > I must be confused, I was under the impression that you don’t work? How are you earning or paying for anything? > > Maybe you should have planned your life better to avoid disability so you could work more, and then you wouldn’t have to worry about money. She planned perfectly. She married a rich guy from Orange County. Now if all those friggin’ welfare queens would get with the program and find themselves a sugar daddy, we can close this thread once and for all. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/143 "2009-09-22T18:53:14Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I know you won’t bother because it would prove you an idiot, but I’ll try anyway - cite for when I ever chastised anyone for not planning for “every possible unforeseen calamity”? Hint - you won’t find it. Right. And when people use words like “inner city” and “urban” they can claim they never said “black”, either, but everybody knows what is meant. Wonder what would happen if your husband got some illness that required treatment that his insurance barely covered - my bet is you’d suddenly be a fan of the liberals and their evil UHC agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/144 "2009-09-22T19:24:23Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Love that get a job thing. Unemployment in Detroit is 29 percent. Sir, the men haven’t worked in months! Well… _Force them!_ ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/145 "2009-09-22T20:20:11Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Being poor. Your husband earns about 50% more than the median income for your county of residence. Yet you say you believe that paying for UHC will cause you to become broke, lose your house, and/or be unable to retire. That’s just crazy and not factual, unless you are also very irresponsible with money, which you claim you are not. Your irrational fear of poverty has made you unable to feel compassion for the less fortunate. All you see is people who want to take your money and make you poor again. It’s not going to happen unless you and your husband make some very bad financial decisions in the next decade or so, unrelated to taxation, because fiscally responsible people who make six figure salaries are not at risk of poverty or homelessness. If so, then that’s your problem, right? Being irresponsible is no cause for compassion, or so you’d have us believe. All you see is a dollar amount and nothing else. No concept of cost of living, no concept of what might happen if that income suddenly stops, and obviously no concept of the tax burden the middle class is under. Particularly here, where the state already provides quite a bit of those handouts that you want to be available nationwide. Doesn’t the financial crisis here in California give you any clue about what might happen if all of these programs go national? I have no irrational fear of poverty. Been there, done that - I have no desire to go back to it and I will mightily resent it if I become poor due to being forced to pay taxes to support people whose only contribution to society is to have children. That’s it - everything else is a projection of your bias. As is your assumption I have no compassion for those less fortunate. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > And yet, people are doing the same damned thing for you. Same damned what thing? Surprises? ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/146 "2009-09-22T21:27:16Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > All you see is a dollar amount and nothing else. No concept of cost of living, no concept of what might happen if that income suddenly stops, and obviously no concept of the tax burden the middle class is under. Particularly here, where the state already provides quite a bit of those handouts that you want to be available nationwide. Doesn’t the financial crisis here in California give you any clue about what might happen if all of these programs go national? Sheeeeit, fool - I’m considered middle class, and I don’t feel unduly burdened by taxes (though I sure as fuck did when I was lower class). Damn, here in the Bay Area even the sales tax is 9.5%, yet if I didn’t want to pay it _I could move_ to a less expensive area. So could you, but I’m sure you’d find something else to bitch about if your cost of living went down. I’d love to see you answer **Meyer6** ’s questions - well, I would love it if I hadn’t already seen your “answers” in previous threads. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/147 "2009-09-23T00:08:34Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > As is your assumption I have no compassion for those less fortunate. _snerk_ Assumption, that’s good. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/148 "2009-09-23T00:14:50Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > You misunderstand. It is the United States as a whole that is uber-rich–not necessarily you and your husband. You , me, and everyone else benefits from being a member of that uber-rich USA club. There are dues to pay to belong to that club and (at least for the last 40 years or so) we haven’t been paying even close to our fair share of those dues. It is time that we pay that fair share, so don’t bitch about it, OK? Huh? What dues have we failed to pay? > [@](#): > > I mean, other than that check you get in the mail twice a month from Uncle Sugar. The one that by your own logic you certainly don’t deserve. Yet you take it anyway. That’s just simple greed, isn’t it? Not any more than any other SS recipient - less, since I will always get less per month since I filed early. > [@Rubystreak](#): > > Then, I told you to stop PM’ing me, but you wouldn’t, because you had to have the last word, Uh, no, that would be you that had to have the last word - your exact words were “I’m going to say my piece, and then it’s over.” When I had the gall (:rolleyes:) to respond, you PM’d again and said if I responded again you’d report me to the mods. So, is it that you really don’t remember the truth or do you just prefer to remember things the way you like? > [@](#): > > The only reason you didn’t get the last word in those other two big threads is because people kept posting to them deliberately to prevent you from having it. How does that work? Someone posts and magically locks me out from responding? Or, could it be, the reason I wasn’t the last one to post was because I lost interest? Nah, what fun would it be for you to think that? > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Show some proof that UHC will force you off of your private insurance plan and into the public option. > > You won’t, because you can’t. I didn’t say it would. What I have said is that is one of the options that is discussed. You know, when you all say that you want to have a UHC like the UK or Canada? > [@Rubystreak](#): > > Also, show some proof that the costs of UHC would cause your family, which has a six figure income, to lose its house and retirement fund, and cause you to go broke. Any reasonable cite will do. A cite? For our income and bills? How could that be done? ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/149 "2009-09-23T00:34:12Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > All you see is a dollar amount and nothing else. I posted the average median income for your county. Your husband earns 50% more than that. That means that you’re quite a bit wealthier than those around you, despite your claims that Orange County is so expensive. Well, yeah, I’m sure it is, but you’re STILL making more than the vast majority of people who live around you. I have plenty of concept of cost of living-- you are still wealthy despite that. Sorry if that blows your image of yourself. > [@](#): > > No concept of cost of living, no concept of what might happen if that income suddenly stops, and obviously no concept of the tax burden the middle class is under. If that income suddenly stops, surely you’ve planned for that, right? Surely you have savings? Isn’t that what you’d tell anyone else under these circumstances? And as for the tax burden of the middle class-- I know more about it than you do, because… I’m actually middle class, babe. You’re the one who’s wealthy, remember? > [@](#): > > I have no irrational fear of poverty. Been there, done that - I have no desire to go back to it and I will mightily resent it if I become poor due to being forced to pay taxes to support people whose only contribution to society is to have children. It’s so hilarious that you contradict yourself within one sentence. Yes, you do have an irrational fear of poverty. You were asked for a cite that taxation for social programs has any chance in hell of putting a person with a six figure salary into poverty. We are all still waiting for that cite. There isn’t one. You make far too much money to be driven into destitution by UHC. Your worries are unfounded and based on your own neurosis. Seek help. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/150 "2009-09-23T02:06:03Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I didn’t say it would. Yes, you did. > [@](#): > > What I have said is that is one of the options that is discussed. No, it isn’t. > [@](#): > > You know, when you all say that you want to have a UHC like the UK or Canada? None of the proposals in Congress says this. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/151 "2009-09-23T02:33:41Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > Curlcoat, can you answer a couple of serious question? > > 1. Can you explain exactly why Canadians can pay half as much per capita for health care, have UHC, not have people dying in the street, and still not be ‘taxing the middle class out of existence’ or threatening peoples mortgages? How about Europe? Australia? Japan? I have yet to understand this point. (cite about per capita expenditure, should you care to learn something - [Health system - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_systems#cite_note-11)) I have no idea what the tax burden in those countries is, do you? (Tho I seem to remember that all of the rich people were leaving the UK at some point because their taxes were so high.) I also have no idea how many people they are supporting with their taxes, how much money they put into research. Nor do I know that they don’t have people “dying in the street” from preventable problems. How much of a middle class do these countries have? How long have they had the UHCs and what if any private insurance countries did they have prior? What is their turn-away rate? What is included in that per capita health expenditure in your Wiki article? How much difference does malpractice insurance expenses make? There are many things to look at other than “it works in these other countries”. And whether it actually works is also up to interpretation - for example the [NHS](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Health_Service_%28England%29#Financial_outlook) in England is way in the hole despite being funded from general taxation. Nor do I think most folks in the US would want to [wait 18 weeks](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Health_Service_%28England%29#Waiting_lists_and_the_18_week_target) for treatment. > [@](#): > > 1. What would have happened to you had you not met and married your husband? Surely you must concede that this could have happened, you could have remained single. Leaving aside the size of his salary, you admit that your cost of living is covered by him. Could you really live off your paltry disability payments? Would you be able to get/afford health insurance? Would you have to go onto a government health care plan? I have no idea what would have happened had things taken a different path 20 odd years ago. OTOH, since I spent years living well below the poverty level and didn’t take any handouts then, I cannot imagine I’d have done so now if I wasn’t married to this husband. However, if for some bizarre reason I did, it would have been after 35+ years of working so I’d have paid into the system. The people that I am tired of supporting are those that pay little if anything into the system but take a lot out. > [@MissIntent](#): > > I must be confused, I was under the impression that you don’t work? How are you earning or paying for anything? I worked until 9/07 so earned my pensions and IRAs for those 35+ years. I am still paying income tax to the fed and the state, as well as property tax, sales tax, gas tax, etc. Really, the only thing that I’m not paying are Social Security and Medicare. > [@](#): > > Maybe you should have planned your life better to avoid disability so you could work more, and then you wouldn’t have to worry about money. Yeah, right. > [@gonzomax](#): > > Not at all. You are bitching about your especially hard earned money going to people who refuse to work and help themselves. That is a pretty specialized case of people who have their claws into your personal income. Yet the real drain on your finances goes to the wealthy , corporations and banks. You should focus your outrage where it is real ,not against some phantom poor guy . Again, those things are not the subject here, nor does the average Joe seem to think that it’s a good idea for the wealthy, corporations and banks to attach a tax to the incomes of the working folk. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/152 "2009-09-23T02:33:44Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Uh, no, that would be you that had to have the last word - your exact words were “I’m going to say my piece, and then it’s over.” When I had the gall (:rolleyes:) to respond, you PM’d again and said if I responded again you’d report me to the mods. So, is it that you really don’t remember the truth or do you just prefer to remember things the way you like? Wow, you’re not going to let this go, are you? I asked you to stop messaging me. You didn’t. I told you this was it, no more. You kept messaging me. At that point, yes, I said I’d contact the mods. That wasn’t the end of it either. How many times does someone have to ask you not to write back (nasty posts full of :rolleyes: and personal attacks) before you get the message? Two? Three? Four? How much abuse am I expected to take from you, honestly? You HAVE to have the last word. You’re still trying to have it now. You just can’t stand that I shut your mean-spirited tirades down over PM, you’re still sore about it, so you keep bringing it up, as if somehow I’m going to look bad because I asked you to stop messaging me and you didn’t, repeatedly. No, it makes you look like a psycho. > [@](#): > > How does that work? Someone posts and magically locks me out from responding? Or, could it be, the reason I wasn’t the last one to post was because I lost interest? Nah, what fun would it be for you to think that? Several posters said that they would not stop posting to the thread until you did, specifically to thwart you from getting the last word, so a mod locked it. Doesn’t leave you much opportunity to get your word in edgewise, does it? And does lend credence to the idea that most people have the impression that you can’t ever let anything go. > [@](#): > > A cite? For our income and bills? How could that be done? Don’t you get that it’s patently insane to claim that taxes for social programs are going to drive you, with your six figure family income, into poverty? It’s not going to happen. Do you realize that you and your husband are in the upper echelons of earners in your county, so every-fucking-body else in Orange County who makes less than you but who pays federal taxes would be pushed over the edge first? The fact that this is not going to happen is just common sense. It’s pathological and delusional for you to claim otherwise. Give it up. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/153 "2009-09-23T03:07:07Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by **Rubystreak** > > Also, show some proof that the costs of UHC would cause your family, which has a six figure income, to lose its house and retirement fund, and cause you to go broke. Any reasonable cite will do. > > A cite? For our income and bills? How could that be done? Easy. Scan copies of your husband’s pay stub (showing all deductions and withholdings), your Social Security check, and all of your bills. Post them to Flicker. This would, of course, entail you relinquishing any feelings you may be harboring that the financial details of your life are none of our business. And if you were to do so, I, for one, would be VERY creeped out. 😛 Another approach might be to read **Rubystreak** ’s request as asking you to provide well-defended numbers outlining how much a UHC program would cost, on the whole, and how much of that burden would come out of your (and your husband’s) personal pockets. Mind you, all currently considered plans include in their assumptions the provision that household incomes that do not exceed $350K will bear no additional tax burden. If you choose to discard that assumption, please state your justification for doing so (something empirical would be preferred). It will be perfectly understandable if your desire to leave vague the question of whether or not your household income meets the $350K mark prevents you from responding with complete candor. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/154 "2009-09-23T04:31:22Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Right. And when people use words like “inner city” and “urban” they can claim they never said “black”, either, but everybody knows what is meant. Huh. And here I thought inner city meant, well, inner city and urban meant, yeah urban. But then I guess I don’t spend much time looking for hidden meanings or whatever it is you are doing. > [@](#): > > Wonder what would happen if your husband got some illness that required treatment that his insurance barely covered - my bet is you’d suddenly be a fan of the liberals and their evil UHC agenda. Nope. I don’t change my opinions simply because it might benefit me or mine. But, if I did, how would that differ from the selfish views of those who think that others should pay for their healthcare? > [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Sheeeeit, fool - I’m considered middle class, and I don’t feel unduly burdened by taxes (though I sure as fuck did when I was lower class). Damn, here in the Bay Area even the sales tax is 9.5%, yet if I didn’t want to pay it _I could move_ to a less expensive area. So could you, but I’m sure you’d find something else to bitch about if your cost of living went down. AGAIN - if we moved to someplace where the cost of living was less, his salary would also be less. And since he is in a rather specialized area, there really aren’t that many places we could move to anyway. > [@Rubystreak](#): > > I posted the average median income for your county. You do understand that average median income and middle class income are not the same thing, right? > [@](#): > > Your husband earns 50% more than that. That means that you’re quite a bit wealthier than those around you, despite your claims that Orange County is so expensive. Well, yeah, I’m sure it is, but you’re STILL making more than the vast majority of people who live around you. Simply because we have a higher income than the average illegal or recent immigrant (which makes up a large portion of our population) doesn’t mean that we are not hard hit by taxes and prices here. The average person here doesn’t pay near the taxes we do - you understand the logic of that, right? If you have a high percentage of poor people, the non-poor end up with more of the taxes because they are the ones that can pay. > [@](#): > > If that income suddenly stops, surely you’ve planned for that, right? Surely you have savings? Yes, and THAT is why I actively resist having yet another tax added for the government to waste most of and give the rest to folks whose only apparent contribution is to have children. After our mortgage, taxes are by far our biggest expense - the mortgage payments will stop in a few years, the taxes continue to climb. Since I have no definite way to project just how bad the tax bite will be in 10-20-30 years, all I can do is hope we have enough put by and resist all additional taxes. > [@](#): > > Isn’t that what you’d tell anyone else under these circumstances? Of course not, but whatever you want to believe. > [@](#): > > And as for the tax burden of the middle class-- I know more about it than you do, because… I’m actually middle class, babe. You’re the one who’s wealthy, remember? Wait, weren’t you the one that was whining about how poor you are? Or was that **Broomstick**? For some reason, I cannot keep the two of you straight. > [@](#): > > You were asked for a cite that taxation for social programs has any chance in hell of putting a person with a six figure salary into poverty. No, you said you wanted a cite “that the costs of UHC would cause your family, which has a six figure income, to lose its house and retirement fund, and cause you to go broke”. I still don’t know how I’m supposed to cite our income and out lay, as well as projected costs in the future. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Yes, you did. I can’t remember what you are talking about here, but if you think I said something that I say I didn’t, all you have to do is provide a cite. > [@](#): > > No, it isn’t.None of the proposals in Congress says this. I am also responding to what people here say they want, which includes a blanket UHC such as they have in the UK and Canada. Since the current stuff in Congress doesn’t appear to be doing very well, it is possible that they will try a UK/Canada/whatever plan next. Or not, one can never tell what they will do. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/155 "2009-09-23T04:57:04Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > You do understand that average median income and middle class income are not the same thing, right? You disputed my definition of middle class, saying that Orange County was so much more expensive. I cited the average median salary for Orange County. If you make 50% more than that, it’s safe to say that, for that county, you’re not middle class. But you can cling to that identity if you wish to. There’s no shame in being wealthy. > [@](#): > > Of course not, but whatever you want to believe. Your mantra, whenever anyone has to ask for help or falls on hard times, is that they didn’t plan adequately. I could dig up cites where you said just this, even when it was pointed out to you that it would be nearly impossible to plan adequately for a catastrophic illness. But I sense this will be futile and that you will deny it anyway. > [@](#): > > Wait, weren’t you the one that was whining about how poor you are? Or was that **Broomstick**? For some reason, I cannot keep the two of you straight. I guess that’s supposed to be an insult, because you know damn well who I am. I am not poor. I am middle class. I pay my taxes just like you, but I still want everyone to have health care. > [@](#): > > No, you said you wanted a cite “that the costs of UHC would cause your family, which has a six figure income, to lose its house and retirement fund, and cause you to go broke”. I still don’t know how I’m supposed to cite our income and out lay, as well as projected costs in the future. kaylasdad already outlined how you could prove it. Find a cite for how much UHC is projected to cost people in your tax bracket based on the plans currently being debated in Congress. Then tell us if that tax increase (if there is indeed any at all) will cause you to lose your house/retirement fund/go broke. It should not be hard to do this. But honestly, if you really think UHC is going to break your finances, you are completely irrational. It’s not going to happen. Your fears are absolutely without factual basis. > [@](#): > > I am also responding to what people here say they want, which includes a blanket UHC such as they have in the UK and Canada. Since the current stuff in Congress doesn’t appear to be doing very well, it is possible that they will try a UK/Canada/whatever plan next. Or not, one can never tell what they will do. If the current watered down, toothless plans don’t pass, you think a Canada or UK style plan will? Not likely. Not even possible. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/156 "2009-09-23T05:17:43Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > AGAIN - if we moved to someplace where the cost of living was less, his salary would also be less. And since he is in a rather specialized area, there really aren’t that many places we could move to anyway. What, does he work out of your home? Haven’t you ever heard of commuting? I have a co-worker who used to drive from Lake Elsinore to Santa Clarita every day before he was transferred to Anaheim. And of course, now he’s driving from Lake Elsinore to Anaheim (which is a big improvement). Or is it your contention that for a place to actually count as having a “lower cost of living” it must be in an entirely different region of the country, beyond the practical range of even the most extreme of commuters? 'Cos I don’t buy that. In my book Santa Clarita has a highter cost of living than Lake Elsinore. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/157 "2009-09-23T05:20:13Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Or is it your contention that for a place to actually count as having a “lower cost of living” it must be in an entirely different region of the country, beyond the practical range of even the most extreme of commuters? My office is 108.5 miles from my house. I don’t want to hear anyone complaining about ‘long commutes’. (Well, OK. I do telecommute twice a week.) ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/158 "2009-09-23T05:27:29Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Wow, you’re not going to let this go, are you? I asked you to stop messaging me. You didn’t. I told you this was it, no more. You kept messaging me. At that point, yes, I said I’d contact the mods. That wasn’t the end of it either. It wasn’t? Gee, there doesn’t seem to be a response to me after the post where you threatened to tattle to the mods… > [@](#): > > How many times does someone have to ask you not to write back (nasty posts full of :rolleyes: and personal attacks) before you get the message? Gee, I dunno. I get a PM full of personal attacks and lies and for some reason, I feel like writing back, many times in kind. Do you suppose that’s an uncommon response? > [@](#): > > You just can’t stand that I shut your mean-spirited tirades down over PM, you’re still sore about it, so you keep bringing it up, Uh, hon? I mentioned it once. You are the one that keeps harping on it. > [@](#): > > Several posters said that they would not stop posting to the thread until you did, specifically to thwart you from getting the last word, so a mod locked it. The thread I was talking about was the “anything else you motherfuckers want” thread, which is not locked, has four posts after my last one which were basically just random insults, which is typical of the immature minds here in the Pit who cannot debate anything in an intelligent fashion for any length of time. In the hate children thread there are over 15 posts after my last one and it was locked because it had been resurrected after over two months of no posts, not because a mod wanted to keep me from getting the last word. See, these are examples of why it is difficult for me to take anything you say seriously. You pick and chose, reinterpret, flat lie and just make shit up. All because you don’t agree with my opinions on universal healthcare. You harp on our income as if that is the be all and end all of whether or not we can afford anything. You cherry pick facts about this area and pretend you know what income is needed to live comfortably. You insist that there is nothing wrong with us doing without some things so that others can have things they want. Because you disagree with me, you easily believe all sorts of negative things about me, but cannot fathom that any of those working poor that need insurance could possibly be anything other than hard working folk being held down by the man. I don’t care if you want to be a bleeding heart, just don’t expect that you can force, insult or trick me into believing you. You want me to agree with your opinion, act like an adult instead of a gradeschooler. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/159 "2009-09-23T05:28:59Z")
Get a room, you two. What happens in PM stays in PM. Can we at least have _that_ general practice? ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616/160 "2009-09-23T05:38:33Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I have no idea what the tax burden in those countries is, do you? (Tho I seem to remember that all of the rich people were leaving the UK at some point because their taxes were so high.) I also have no idea how many people they are supporting with their taxes, how much money they put into research. Nor do I know that they don’t have people “dying in the street” from preventable problems. > > How much of a middle class do these countries have? How long have they had the UHCs and what if any private insurance countries did they have prior? What is their turn-away rate? What is included in that per capita health expenditure in your Wiki article? How much difference does malpractice insurance expenses make? > > There are many things to look at other than “it works in these other countries”. And whether it actually works is also up to interpretation - for example the [NHS](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Health_Service_%28England%29#Financial_outlook) in England is way in the hole despite being funded from general taxation. Nor do I think most folks in the US would want to [wait 18 weeks](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Health_Service_%28England%29#Waiting_lists_and_the_18_week_target) for treatment. Yeah, I do know what the tax burden is in Canada and the UK since have lived in both those places and currently live in Canada. I am a graduate student (thus I pay no taxes _and_ the government pays me from a research scholarship fund. How do you like them apples?), but my parents are squarely in the middle class and probably in your age group and have absolutely no complaints about paying taxes for universal health care and the other social systems that support our society. They are certainly not in any immenant danger of losing their house or mortgage. I will keep my eye out for people dying in the streets the next time I’m out and about, but I have never seen them so far. Despite the persistant belief that all Canadians and Britons wait indefinately for any health care, neither I nor anyone else in my family has ever had to wait any serious amount of time for necessary care. There is a triage system, so people with urgent situations get first dibs as it were, but the system seems to work pretty well. I’m not saying it’s perfect, but I am satisfied and I hear few complaints. In Britain you can even buy private health insurance on top of the NHS to get your ultra-special care. Canada has had UHC since the 1960s - certainly a long time, but within memory for lots of people. There was apparently a lot of hue and cry about it at the time, but clearly it worked out pretty well. Some people will always fear change, I guess. > [@](#): > > I have no idea what would have happened had things taken a different path 20 odd years ago. OTOH, since I spent years living well below the poverty level and didn’t take any handouts then, I cannot imagine I’d have done so now if I wasn’t married to this husband. By your very own admission you were young and healthy when you were living in poverty previously. If you have all the health problems you claim to have surely you realize that your health care is costing more now. How would you be paying for that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-45-000-die-in-u-s-every-year-from-lack-of-healthcare/510616.md?page=9)