# New study answers the black/white athletic performance difference question - It's just physics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 21, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-answers-the-black-white-athletic-performance-difference-question-its-just-physics/547518 "2010-07-21T22:08:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-answers-the-black-white-athletic-performance-difference-question-its-just-physics/547518/101 "2010-08-02T16:29:21Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Scroll to the bottom [here]([Standardized Tests: The Interpretation of Racial and Ethnic Gaps](http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm#APPENDIX) B) to see some data… I checked your cite even though it has nothing to do with athletics. To someone like me who is not equiped to determine the veracity of the data or the math involved, on the surface it sounds convincing. Yet, The author, [La Griffe du Lion](http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/La_Griffe_du_Lion) wants to remain anonymous. His math is criticised as bogus. He clearly has a racist agenda that is apparent to me. The following quote is what I found quite disturbing. > [@](#): > > Notably, when Dawson’s study looked at entering students with similar academic credentials, the pass rates on the NBME exam were independent of race, pointing an accusing finger directly at affirmative action. For all its good intentions, affirmative action has created two levels of competence in American medicine, separated by a bit more than one standard deviation. When you are wheeled into the ER at 2:00 a.m.,\*\* if you pray, pray that the black doctor who greets you entered medical school through the front door\*\*. -bolding mine Btw, one of my doctors is black, and it never occured to me to be concerned. If you want to convince us of your extreme point of view (and I’m much closer to you than anyone else here on the issue of race in athletics) I suggest you choose your cites a little more carefully. ---
**Author:** ![Dreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@Dreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreen)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-answers-the-black-white-athletic-performance-difference-question-its-just-physics/547518/102 "2010-08-02T17:28:24Z")
La Griffe almost never cites his writings. My favorites, though, are his “smart fraction” pieces, which he bases entirely on Lynn’s abysmal 2002 data. They’re my favorites simply based on how piss poor they are. I don’t know why various online racialists give him such credence. Is it his tone that makes him so powerful? His data sure as hell isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Dreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@Dreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreen)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-answers-the-black-white-athletic-performance-difference-question-its-just-physics/547518/103 "2010-08-02T17:34:52Z")
That metapedia link on him is interesting- was that just a copy paste of a wikipedia article? It’s pretty harsh despite being on a WN wiki. La Griffe possibly being Robert Gordon is also interesting. He hasn’t published any academic papers since 1997 (La Griffe began writing in 1999), he was married to noted IQ fetishist Linda Gottfredson (who has a tone of obnoxiousness to her writings I seldom encounter in most racialist academics), and he authored 2 papers arguing virtually the entire black-white crime gap could be explained by IQ- figures so absurdly high that, in spite of Herrnstein and Murray favorably citing them in the “Bell Curve”, only did so as examples and indeed couldn’t replicate his figures. And Murray’s description of griff in that newsgroup link sounds alot like Gordon. I can’t help but wonder if those papers were mainly just big chunks of shock value. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-answers-the-black-white-athletic-performance-difference-question-its-just-physics/547518/104 "2010-08-02T18:55:06Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > > [@mascaroni](#): > > > > How many Kenyans have been in an Olympic 100m final? > > how many Jamaicans have been in an Olympic 10 000m final? > > > > Race ain’t just the colour of your skin. > > Kenyans–at least the Kalenjin–probably don’t have the right genes for power sprinting, and the “Jamaicans” (of West African descent) don’t have the right genes for marathons. > > We are, you see, our genes, and when we see over-representation like the ones you mention, it’s genes that drive it (to a far greater extent than ‘socio-economic’ / cultural drivers). > > Both those groups typically self-identify as “black” but of course that SIRE group is quite loose, and so in my opinion while it’s correct to predict that the black “race” will excel in those two areas, it’s fine to argue for splitting as well. The key point is that when we find differences, and can account for nurture, it’s genes driving the differences. the OP mentions “black/white athletic performance difference”. The point I was trying to make (obviously not very well…) was that IMHO the genetical differences that evolved due to terrain, lifestyle and (particularly in Kenya’s case) altitude, is the reason for the disparity in the two events, rather than the genetics that determined skin colour. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-answers-the-black-white-athletic-performance-difference-question-its-just-physics/547518/105 "2010-08-02T19:10:26Z")
> [@Dreen](#): > > > [@mascaroni](#): > > > > How many Kenyans have been in an Olympic 100m final? > > how many Jamaicans have been in an Olympic 10 000m final? > > > > Race ain’t just the colour of your skin. > > Yeah, and race is an automatic causational factor in physiological traits, which are likewise heavily genetic, right? If I understand the question right, I fail to see how you came to that conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Dreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@Dreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreen)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-answers-the-black-white-athletic-performance-difference-question-its-just-physics/547518/106 "2010-08-02T21:45:21Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > > [@Dreen](#): > > > > Yeah, and race is an automatic causational factor in physiological traits, which are likewise heavily genetic, right? > > If I understand the question right, I fail to see how you came to that conclusion. You’re saying race exists by the fact physiological differences cluster along those lines. How do either of those follow? How are said physiological differences so deep-seated? ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-answers-the-black-white-athletic-performance-difference-question-its-just-physics/547518/107 "2010-08-02T22:24:51Z")
> [@Dreen](#): > > > [@mascaroni](#): > > > > If I understand the question right, I fail to see how you came to that conclusion. > > You’re saying race exists by the fact physiological differences cluster along those lines. How do either of those follow? How are said physiological differences so deep-seated? I’m english. The term “race” is not a big deal over here. Can you provide me with an alternative word? Second question: Evolution, see reply to **Chief Pedant** A question for you: Why are there usually two or three Jamaicans in the Olympic 100m finals and two or three Kenyans in the 10 000m Olympic finals? ---
**Author:** ![Dreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@Dreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreen)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-answers-the-black-white-athletic-performance-difference-question-its-just-physics/547518/108 "2010-08-02T23:53:05Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > > [@Dreen](#): > > > > You’re saying race exists by the fact physiological differences cluster along those lines. How do either of those follow? How are said physiological differences so deep-seated? > > I’m english. The term “race” is not a big deal over here. Can you provide me with an alternative word? > > Second question: Evolution, see reply to **Chief Pedant** > > A question for you: > Why are there usually two or three Jamaicans in the Olympic 100m finals and two or three Kenyans in the 10 000m Olympic finals? A mixture of genetic and environmental reasons. I’ll just quote that part from Snyderman and Rothman that I mentioned earlier, on page 80: [The IQ Controversy, the Media and Public Policy - Mark Snyderman, Stanley Rothman - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?id=DAYO1Nggh3EC&printsec=frontcover&dq=snyderman+and+rothman&hl=en&ei=Z1hXTMbKI4amnAe-xIGNAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false) > [@](#): > > Several important points must be kept in mind when interpreting data on the heritability of IQ. First, heritability deals with variation in a trait, not with absolute level. It indicates the degree to which individual differences in some trait can be attributed to genetic or nongenetic differences. Thus, the average IQ of the population as a whole can significantly change as a result of some environmental or genetic changes without affecting the heritability of IQ. If everyone’s IQ changed by 20 points, with no change in IQ variation (no change in anyone’s IQ relative to that of others), heritability would remain the same. There is indeed a genetic component to these physiological differences, but it’s not like it’s deep seated. That analysis of heritability is a proper way to view these traits. You, however, said “race is more than skin deep” by pointing out physiological differences. They cluster along those lines, but are they causational factors? I’ll try to get back to CP later, but his posts consist of alot of generic racialist tripe I’ve seen time and time again. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-answers-the-black-white-athletic-performance-difference-question-its-just-physics/547518/109 "2010-08-03T22:01:09Z")
**Dreen** , “_a mixture of environmental and genetic reasons_” is what I was alluding to. Is evolution not a result of these factors? I fail to see what Snyderman and Rothman’s studies on IQ have to do with athletics. Although “\*If everyone’s IQ changed by 20 points, with no change in IQ variation (no change in anyone’s IQ relative to that of others), heritability would remain the same. \*” could apply. Jesse Owens personal bests wouldn’t get him Olympic qualification these days. However, I don’t think it is unreasonable to assume that, had he been born eighty years later and had access to modern training, diet and equipment he would be a top athlete. \*“You, however, said “race is more than skin deep” by pointing out physiological differences. They cluster along those lines, but are they causational factors?” \* As someone who didn’t have the benefit of an American university brainwashing, I’m struggling with the jargon. Any chance of saying that in Plain english? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-answers-the-black-white-athletic-performance-difference-question-its-just-physics/547518/110 "2010-08-05T01:57:36Z")
Obviously the differences in sports performance between people of different origins are due to heredity and genetics, which race is based on. After all, we all know that if a bell rings, and a man dies, the bell has caused the death. And the bell must obviously be attuned to the race of the dead man. I know it sounds illogical, but consider sports again. After all, everybody on earth dedicates their lives to competing in sports at the highest level, so differences in performances must have a genetic basis. Apparently I have to note even the most blatent sarcasm in these threads, such as the preceding paragraph. Or perhaps I am missing the sarcasm in those who argue this question based on it’s ridiculous premises. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-answers-the-black-white-athletic-performance-difference-question-its-just-physics/547518/111 "2010-08-05T02:53:42Z")
Its kind of sad to observe someone who is reduced to arguing with himself. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-answers-the-black-white-athletic-performance-difference-question-its-just-physics/547518/112 "2010-08-06T16:40:15Z")
Not as sad as pseudo-intellectuals debating points based on non-existent facts and fallacious reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-answers-the-black-white-athletic-performance-difference-question-its-just-physics/547518/113 "2010-08-07T03:02:19Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Not as sad as pseudo-intellectuals debating points based on non-existent facts and fallacious reasoning. Is that directed at me? If so, what non-existent facts have I based my posts on? What fallacious reasoning have I used? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-answers-the-black-white-athletic-performance-difference-question-its-just-physics/547518/114 "2010-08-07T08:28:22Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > > [@TriPolar](#): > > > > Not as sad as pseudo-intellectuals debating points based on non-existent facts and fallacious reasoning. > > Is that directed at me? > > If so, what non-existent facts have I based my posts on? > What fallacious reasoning have I used? No, it is not directed at you. I hadn’t noticed anything in your posts, and the last few don’t actually have much content to object to. The OP is about fallacious reasoning and non-existent facts regarding genetics, statistics, and physics. You seem to be countering the argument, although I haven’t read all your posts. But I think these arguments are intended to draw people into trying to present a rational argument based on the irrational premises. I’ve fallen into the trap myself. I don’t need to show a counter-argument to such nonsense, I prefer sarcasm, or disdainfully pointing out the absurdity. Racing is not ‘falling forward’ any more than gravity is ‘intelligent falling’. World records in varying sports have no statistical correlation to genetics. World records are set by the insignificant percentage of people who ever try to set a world record in the first place, through years of dedication and effort, and then actually do set a world record without being impeded by the numerous random factors that would prevent it. And if you were an objective observer of the facts, you would notice the factors that make a world record holder that are common across all the presumed arbitrary genetic distinctions. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-answers-the-black-white-athletic-performance-difference-question-its-just-physics/547518/115 "2010-08-07T14:40:50Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > > [@mascaroni](#): > > > > Is that directed at me? > > > > If so, what non-existent facts have I based my posts on? > > What fallacious reasoning have I used? > > … World records in varying sports have no statistical correlation to genetics. World records are set by the insignificant percentage of people who ever try to set a world record in the first place, through years of dedication and effort, and then actually do set a world record without being impeded by the numerous random factors that would prevent it. And if you were an objective observer of the facts, you would notice the factors that make a world record holder that are common across all the presumed arbitrary genetic distinctions. So, if Woody Allen had had the drive, dedication and effort, he could have been a top shot putter? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-answers-the-black-white-athletic-performance-difference-question-its-just-physics/547518/116 "2010-08-07T17:53:30Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Not as sad as pseudo-intellectuals debating points based on non-existent facts and fallacious reasoning. This thread is not about you ! ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-answers-the-black-white-athletic-performance-difference-question-its-just-physics/547518/117 "2010-08-07T18:04:44Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > > [@TriPolar](#): > > > > … World records in varying sports have no statistical correlation to genetics. World records are set by the insignificant percentage of people who ever try to set a world record in the first place, through years of dedication and effort, and then actually do set a world record without being impeded by the numerous random factors that would prevent it. And if you were an objective observer of the facts, you would notice the factors that make a world record holder that are common across all the presumed arbitrary genetic distinctions. > > So, if Woody Allen had had the drive, dedication and effort, he could have been a top shot putter? If the shot put had weight classes, maybe. But how about a jockey? Or any other sport where increasing height and weight are disadvantageous. And that doesn’t have much to do with the gene pool that he represents a random selection from. Oh yeah, if he had been born sooner, he would have been a top basketball player. He missed the point when Jews and Africans magically transposed their basketball genes. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-answers-the-black-white-athletic-performance-difference-question-its-just-physics/547518/118 "2010-08-07T18:05:56Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > [@TriPolar](#): > > > > Not as sad as pseudo-intellectuals debating points based on non-existent facts and fallacious reasoning. > > This thread is not about you ! For which I am very grateful. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-answers-the-black-white-athletic-performance-difference-question-its-just-physics/547518.md?page=5)