# New study on "whiteness" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 5, 2006, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522 "2006-09-05T16:23:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/1 "2006-09-05T16:23:43Z")
Saw this [blurb](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1531296,00.html) about a new study on white racial identity. For some reason I can’t find much other information on the study. The part that really caught my eye was this: > [@](#): > > …The survey is packed with fascinating findings, some surprising (a stunning proportion of whites–77%–say their race has a distinct culture that should be preserved)… Is that really very surprising _or_ stunning? What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/2 "2006-09-05T16:32:48Z")
It surprises me. I don’t think any of my white friends feel that way, but we’ve never talked about it, so how would I know? ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/3 "2006-09-05T16:46:49Z")
Not surprising at all. The percentage is about right, too. It’s basically the liberal academics who subscribe to the notion of “white guilt” who would say No to this question. And it’s exactly those people who conducted the study, which explains why the results are considered “surprising.” ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/4 "2006-09-05T16:50:59Z")
Bollocks. There is no “white” culture, there are Slavic, Middle-eEuropean, Scandinavian, Mediterraenean, British and Irish cultures, but I don’t think it’s exactly homogynous. Just like there are different cultures in Asia, Africa, the Middle and Far East and Latin America- not a single “African” or “Asian” culture, multiple cultures within the same geographical area. Unless you define “white” culture as being more uptight and neurotic than any other culture, and needing more privacy and personal space than anyone else…then I’m with you. ---
**Author:** ![Autumn\_Almanac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d26b3c/32.png) [@Autumn\_Almanac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autumn_Almanac)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/5 "2006-09-05T16:51:55Z")
It seems to me (as a white person) that there are signifiers (slang, clothes, music, etc.) of black culture, signifiers of Latino culture, etc., and just whatever’s left over belongs to whites, kind of by default. Maybe it looks different from the outside. I’d be interested to see what kinds of things were considered unique signifiers of “white culture.” ---
**Author:** ![Tortuga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c4cdca/32.png) [@Tortuga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tortuga)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/6 "2006-09-05T16:52:27Z")
I think it’s not surprising if you think of all the people who celebrate their Dutch, Scottish, Irish, whateverish history and don’t kneejerk confuse it with “white pride” crud. I wonder if/how they defined the terms used? ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/7 "2006-09-05T16:53:50Z")
I should clarify that I’m not saying that racism is OK, just that the idea that white people should be ashamed of their race, even if they themselves have never consciously discriminated against anyone, is really not widely held by mainstream American whites. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/8 "2006-09-05T17:12:32Z")
I remember noticing at a few of my corporate jobs that I had minority co-workers (African Americans in particular) who were far “whiter” than my caucasian self. And it’s hard to quantify - I’m not saying they’d ceased to be Black, but that they “got” the white corporate culture far better than I did, and fit in much better. I always wanted to open a discussion on the topic, but couldn’t quite figure out how to do so without insulting people. Racial and cultural attributes are a fascinating subject. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/9 "2006-09-05T17:18:16Z")
I would answer yes to that (though I doubt my reasoning is the same as the majority of that 77%.) Top hats, chess, hourglasses, gears and clocks, etc. These things all have a very strong European, and white, past to them. In Japan, you see retellings of kitsune (foxes) living in the forest and leaving leaves as tickets to trains and this is always presented in a…distant and misty, gentle and intimate way. It’s part of their heritage and the symbols and stories they are told when young. I, instead, grew up with Alice and Wonderland, the Grim’s Fairy Tales, Dracula, and white/European culture. I see a library room with a chess table, a big leather chair and a pipe and that’s an image that is comfortable. Venician masks and robes are wonderous and banshees scary. As an American, true, we’ll pick up a rather haphazard array of European and local culture, but still that is the “white” culture, and certainly is something that should be preserved and taught. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/10 "2006-09-05T17:30:46Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > Bollocks. > > There is no “white” culture, there are Slavic, Middle-eEuropean, Scandinavian, Mediterraenean, British and Irish cultures, but I don’t think it’s exactly homogynous. > > Just like there are different cultures in Asia, Africa, the Middle and Far East and Latin America- not a single “African” or “Asian” culture, multiple cultures within the same geographical area. > > Unless you define “white” culture as being more uptight and neurotic than any other culture, and needing more privacy and personal space than anyone else…then I’m with you. Sorry, I think the study was more talking about white _American_ culture, not a global pan-White culture. I agree with you that the latter doesn’t exist any more concretely than do pan-Asian or pan-African cultures. The latter on the other hand… Maybe the one thing that does surprise me is that 77% of respondents were willing to _admit_ to there being a white culture, since it’s generally considered taboo to talk about it in those terms (for the same reasons that you can’t have a “White Living” magazine or wear “White Pride” T-shirts). > [@](#): > > It seems to me (as a white person) that there are signifiers (slang, clothes, music, etc.) of black culture, signifiers of Latino culture, etc., and just whatever’s left over belongs to whites, kind of by default. Maybe it looks different from the outside. I’d be interested to see what kinds of things were considered unique signifiers of “white culture.” I wouldn’t look at it as white people getting the “left-overs”, but kind of the opposite: because of whites’ numerical superiority, white culture is kind of seen as the standard norm from which different ethnic cultures have shot-off. To muddle the issue, it’s hard to say what defines an overall white-American culture; it’s easier to identify in smaller subsets. Back hills Appalachian culture is probably a subset of white culture, as is Garrison Keillor’s mid-West Lake Woebegone culture. I should add the standard disclaimers that not everyone who is a part of “white culture” is necessarily white, nor is everyone who is part of a minority culture a member of that minority group. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/11 "2006-09-05T17:45:28Z")
I’m not surprised, given how frequently the lines between race, ethnicity, and ethnic culture are blurred in this confused country of ours. If you were to ask African-Americans the same thing about the black race, they’d probably say the same thing. Not because they are racist, but because in their minds African-American = black race and therefore, African-American culture = black culture. I’m not surprised whites fall prey to the same type of thinking: European ethnic groups =white race, and therefore, European ethnic culture = white culture. But maybe I’m wrong. Anyway, I found other parts of the article more interesting, actually. > [@](#): > > Though whites in the U.S. believe there remain advantages to being white, **they don’t necessarily link those advantages with blacks’ disadvantages.** This hinders racial reconciliation, says co-author Douglas Hartmann: “Whites have invented subtle ways to convince themselves that race isn’t a problem in America.” (bolding mine) A lot whites don’t get what essentially amounts to Newton’s 3rd Law of Motion. Namely, that every action has a equal and opposite reaction. You can’t have an unfair advantage without someone being unfairly disadvantaged, many whites don’t yet understand this. But this finding was even more interesting: > [@](#): > > Blacks do see more racism in society than whites but, contrary to stereotype, seem disinclined to blame the system for their disadvantage. \*\*In fact, they are more likely to attribute it to individual causes like a lack of hard work–77% did so, compared with 62% of whites. \*\* “We think of U.S. minorities as less engaged in American individualism,” Hartmann says, “but they are maybe more so.” So much for thel culture of self-victimization that blacks are supposedly wallowing around in, huh? I think I’m going to keep this article around for future race discussions. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/12 "2006-09-05T17:48:24Z")
**Sage rat** - what stories would African American children have grown up with? Wouldn’t they also imagine the fire, the leather chair and the scary banshees? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/13 "2006-09-05T18:00:29Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > **Sage rat** - what stories would African American children have grown up with? Wouldn’t they also imagine the fire, the leather chair and the scary banshees? I honestly couldn’t say, but I wouldn’t think so. At base minimum they have the whole Blues-\>Rap music culture, and I am relatively sure they have their own folk tails plus some amount of faux-African stuff that has been added. Hatred for mayonaise? (Though I share that one.) ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/14 "2006-09-05T18:50:35Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > A lot whites don’t get what essentially amounts to Newton’s 3rd Law of Motion. I’m pretty sure Newton’s 3[sup]rd[/sup] law doesn’t apply in a situation like this. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/15 "2006-09-05T18:57:56Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > **Sage rat** - what stories would African American children have grown up with? Wouldn’t they also imagine the fire, the leather chair and the scary banshees? I think that the average American child of any race would be familiar with Alice in Wonderland, grimm fairy tales and Old Mother Goose rhymes. The comforting images of leather chairs and chess sets seem to be symbols of upper class white culture, and not white culture in general though. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/16 "2006-09-05T19:07:51Z")
> [@js\_africanus](#): > > I’m pretty sure Newton’s 3[sup]rd[/sup] law doesn’t apply in a situation like this. Which is why I said “essentially amounts”, which kinda sorta implies that I’m not being literal. It’s actually not raining cats and dogs outside, either. For what it’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/17 "2006-09-05T19:12:35Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > It’s basically the liberal academics who subscribe to the notion of “white guilt” who would say No to this question. And it’s exactly those people who conducted the study, which explains why the results are considered “surprising.” What do liberalism and white guilt have to do with this idea of white culture? I’m not even sure what would be considered to be part of white culture. Did the survey ask for specific attributes of that culture? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/18 "2006-09-05T19:25:51Z")
> [@Omega Glory](#): > > The comforting images of leather chairs and chess sets seem to be symbols of upper class white culture, and not white culture in general though. Dunno, imagine I picked it up from Disney, which is pretty universal. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/19 "2006-09-05T19:32:56Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > Bollocks. > > There is no “white” culture So much for Dan Fogelberg, Dockers, NASCAR, and Brylcreem. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/20 "2006-09-05T19:34:49Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > Dunno, imagine I picked it up from Disney, which is pretty universal. Do you think that African American children don’t watch Disney? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522.md?page=2)