# New study on "whiteness" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 5, 2006, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522 "2006-09-05T16:23:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Slypork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@Slypork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slypork)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/41 "2006-09-06T14:00:22Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Yeah? What do you call Lawrence Welk, Barry Manilow and Burl Ives? Spam on white bread with mayonaisse? Tapioca pudding? Ozzie and Harriet? Archie comics? The Episcopal church? You can’t get any more white than that! Don’t forget The Osmonds, _Leave it to Beaver_ , _The Brady Bunch_ , The Carpenters and bad dancing. “White” culture is basically a reference to American popular culture up through the mid-60’s. Blacks were few and far between on radio and TV (“_Amos and Andy_” were played by white men) or were portrayed stereotypically (Rochester on the _Jack Benny Show_, Buckwheat on the _Little Rascals_). Same for other races (the inscrutable Charlie Chan or the fiendish Dr. Fu Manchu; Mexican banditos from _The Treasure of the Sierra Madre_; the desert sheikhs). Sidney Poitier was an exception because he sounded “white”. Diahann Carroll in _Julia_ was acceptable because she also sounded “white”. Also, she was working in a “white” job as a nurse and was the widow of a pilot killed in Viet Nam (how more conservative and white-bread can you get!). As desegregation moved into the nation’s forefront and front pages it began appearing in other forms. Early rock music that built off “Negro” rhythm and blues was “jungle music” that would drive children into a sordid world of unbridled lust and degradation. It became more tolerable with Elvis (but those hips!). The “white” American culture people want to preserve is one that is free from controversy or aspects that could be considered threatening to their status quo. Rap music in commercials, _Dora the Explorer_, even Apu from _The Simpson’s_ are an intrusion into white Middle America. Of course, I’m so white that I’m damn near luminescent. All of this is my interpretation pulled out of my ass. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/42 "2006-09-06T14:20:16Z")
**js\_africanus** , the point is, you can’t call something an advantage without calling the lack of that something a disadvantage, by definition. Your being able to drive unharassed isn’t won by blacks being harassed, but its status as an advantage is. If no one was unfairly harassed while driving, then you wouldn’t consider not being harassed an advantage. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/43 "2006-09-06T14:20:43Z")
> [@js\_africanus](#): > > I should think that “essentially amounts to” would be more than a haphazard metaphor. And it’s not a good metaphor, anyway. For example, my ability to drive legally without being harassed by the police is hardly a function of others’ misfortunes when they’re harassed for the offense of driving-while-black. Of course it is. If the cops are devoting their attention to nonoffending black people, then it means that people who look like you _who are offending_ are more likely able to get off undetected. So the advantage goes to white people who, in a perfect world, would be getting in trouble in proportion to their offenses. > [@](#): > > There isn’t some set amount of police harassment that needs to be distributed among the populace, and whites haven’t banded together to push all the harassment on to blacks. No, but if bullets are flying and those bullets are disproprotionately raining down on black people’s heads, then the logical conclusion is that white people have a benefit that blacks do not, because societal forces are discriminatory. They are not acting randomly. > [@](#): > > To put it another way, you’re accusing many whites of being blind to what is a fundamentally true, and presumably obvious fact; however, this fact relies on the implicit assumption that there is a conservation of disadvantage. So I’m wondering what type of disadvantages the white people surveyed believe black people have to contend with due to their race. Perhaps if you name some probable ones, I can show you how these disadvantages ultimately translate into white advantage. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/44 "2006-09-06T14:27:03Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > I admit I’m somewhat surprised by this statistic. It might be a problem of perception. Blacks who do blame society for their problems tend to be rather vocal in expressing this opinion, but a guy who realizes that his problems are due largely to his own lack of motivation is unlikely to shout this fact from the rooftops. Also consider the media. An article about a group of whiny black people blaming The Man for their problems in life is more likely to arouse emotions and therefore sell more copies, than the article that doesn’t appeal to such stereotypes. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/45 "2006-09-06T15:10:52Z")
> [@Tortuga](#): > > I think it’s not surprising if you think of all the people who celebrate their Dutch, Scottish, Irish, whateverish history and don’t kneejerk confuse it with “white pride” crud. I wonder if/how they defined the terms used? This is it exactly. _I’m_ surprised at how many folks are inferring things about this survey that aren’t in evidence. From the article: > [@](#): > > a stunning proportion of whites–77%–say their race has a distinct culture that should be preserved What the article does **not** say is that 77% of whites believe that _whites_ have a distinct culture that should be preserved. I imagine the survey collected demographic information that lumped people of all white ‘races’ into the ‘caucasian’ category. Then, at some point in the survey, they were asked whether their race has a distinct culture that should be preserved. So, 77% of: ```auto Page 1 Racial Background: X Caucasian _ African-American _ Hispanic _ Asian-American ``` felt that: ```auto Page 6 My race has a unique culture X Yes _ No ``` The proud Irish-American answered in the affirmative, speaking about his Irish heritage, not about his ‘white’ culture. So, all of these people, who celebrate their unique heritages all answered ‘yes’ to that question. What the survey tells us is that people with white skin may have cultures that they feel strongly about, that may or may not have anything to do with the color of their skin, and may or may not be the same culture as the other people who responded. Granted, I could be wrong as well, but it just goes to show that you can’t really tell much from the article itself. Lies, damn lies, and statistics is what they say, no? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/46 "2006-09-06T15:35:15Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > So I’m wondering what type of disadvantages the white people surveyed believe black people have to contend with due to their race. Perhaps if you name some probable ones, I can show you how these disadvantages ultimately translate into white advantage. In re-reading the article I realized that whites surveyed actually recognize an advantage to being white, but don’t believe this translates into a black disadvantage. So **js\_** , I’m wondering if you could explain how this logic might work. I don’t get it. What advantages don’t come with a equal and opposite disadvantage? ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/47 "2006-09-06T15:46:10Z")
This reminds me of an episode on “Cheers” I saw one time: That short italian waitress, Carla, was talking about what it is to be Italian (or sommething to that effect) To which Fraiser responded with: “You know Carla, I often wished I belonged to some sort of ethnic background…” This cracked me up because I’ve thought the same thing myself on numerous occasions. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/48 "2006-09-06T15:55:11Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > In re-reading the article I realized that whites surveyed actually recognize an advantage to being white, but don’t believe this translates into a black disadvantage. So **js\_** , I’m wondering if you could explain how this logic might work. I don’t get it. What advantages don’t come with a equal and opposite disadvantage? I’ll jump in and hypothesize that maybe the people surveyed believe that the advantages of being _black_ equal out the advantage game. Ie, maybe _I_ can drive around without getting stopped as much as you do, but _you_ can get into a good college more easily than I can, etc. \*Not stating this as my opinion necessarily, just trying to think creatively. I think we need to request this survey. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![MizGrand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cdc98d/32.png) [@MizGrand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MizGrand)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/49 "2006-09-06T16:30:50Z")
The city I live in no longer has a white majority according to the Census. This is a development occurring over the last fifteen years. I will admit, here and now, that I’m more _comfortable_ with people like me. I’ll get lambasted here, as I have in other threads regarding racial relations. This does not mean that I am “better” than anyone else personally. Only that I (not without exception, and not “hey I gotta find a white person to be friends with” of course) choose people that are like me to befriend. That said, I’m experiencing the flip-side of the coin. When I go to the mall in the heart of Hayward, I stick out, because I’m not a shade of brown. I’m not fond of the feeling, and can understand why anyone wouldn’t feel good in a given situation. I’m not fond of hearing languages other than english in public. Perhaps our language is what we should be preserving. I can’t help but feel frustration when I see older people of other ethnicities that simply don’t speak english and are not compelled to learn. I’ll pull out the old tried and true story: my dad came here from Germany when he was nineteen. He arrived thru Ellis Island. He didn’t know a lick of english, and worked hard to learn it. He’s 72 now and I recently asked him if he even remembered German anymore. He did. He pulled out a cassette tape of some german music he listens to often. Anyway, he served in our military, furthered his glazing trade and obtained “The American Dream”. So, if preserving the English language is considered preserving “whiteness”, then I’m all for it. Why should I be ashamed of things done centuries ago? If I live my life considerately with all those around, nothing else matters. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/50 "2006-09-06T17:01:40Z")
> [@RSSchen](#): > > I can’t help but feel frustration when I see older people of other ethnicities that simply don’t speak english and are not compelled to learn. As is pointed out every time this topic comes up, the overwhelming number of immigrants who arrive speaking a language other than English make a serious effort to learn it and their children (with a few quite rare exceptions) pretty much all learn it. Hearing languages spoken other than English is simply not a sign that we are “losing,” in any serious sense of the word, the English language beytween the Rio Grande and the 49th Parallel. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/51 "2006-09-06T17:31:43Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > I’ll jump in and hypothesize that maybe the people surveyed believe that the advantages of being _black_ equal out the advantage game. Ie, maybe _I_ can drive around without getting stopped as much as you do, but _you_ can get into a good college more easily than I can, etc. Well, according this article: > [@](#): > > Though whites in the U.S. believe there remain advantages to being white, they don’t necessarily link those advantages with blacks’ disadvantages. It doesn’t seem like the study was talking who has the net advantage. I think the operative word is “link”. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/52 "2006-09-06T17:38:20Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > But look at the question this way: why would you NOT want your own culture to be preserved? I might want American culture to be preserved, if I thought it were in danger of fading away, which I don’t; but I don’t have any thoughts about what “white” culture is independent of American culture, and I don’t believe there’s any reason to separate out “white” culture from American and Western culture in general. If we’re going to define white culture as mayonnaise-based, then I am definitely not interested in preserving it. ---
**Author:** ![Slypork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@Slypork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slypork)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/53 "2006-09-06T17:48:27Z")
> [@bluethree](#): > > If we’re going to define white culture as mayonnaise-based, then I am definitely not interested in preserving it. What if it was preserve based? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/54 "2006-09-06T18:57:42Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > But look at the question this way: why would you NOT want your own culture to be preserved? The only reason I can think of is (as others have mentioned) if you automatically equate “white culture” with “white supremacy” and think of white culture as being inherantly tainted or malevolent. Here’s a new reason, then: I just think of culture as something that continually evolves and isn’t in any particular need of preservation. Parts of it will last on their own, and when they say it should be preserved, it sounds like some people want active efforts made to stop that evolution. If a culture is nearly gone, like certain languages with only a handful of living speakers, I might say it needs to be preserved. That’s not what we’re talking about here. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/55 "2006-09-06T19:01:10Z")
Oh, I meant to add this: ‘white culture’ has absorbed so much from other cultures within the US that I’m not sure how anyone would preserve it. ---
**Author:** ![Grits\_and\_Hard\_Toast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Grits\_and\_Hard\_Toast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grits_and_Hard_Toast)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/56 "2006-09-06T19:10:48Z")
Quote: Though whites in the U.S. believe there remain advantages to being white, they don’t necessarily link those advantages with blacks’ disadvantages. This hinders racial reconciliation, says co-author Douglas Hartmann: “Whites have invented subtle ways to convince themselves that race isn’t a problem in America.” > [@you with the face](#): > > A lot whites don’t get what essentially amounts to Newton’s 3rd Law of Motion. Namely, that every action has a equal and opposite reaction. You can’t have an unfair advantage without someone being unfairly disadvantaged, many whites don’t yet understand this. > . I would have to see the survey questions that led them to this conclusion, because as it reads I don’t get it. Yes, I feel there are still advantages to being white. Yes, I feel there are still disadvantages to being black. I don’t necessarily link the two together. Here is an example of where I feel I have an advantage being white. The other night my husband and I decided to go to a hole-in-the-wall little dive bar that a friend of ours just bought. We invited several friends to go with us, including a black friend. The other guys all didn’t hesitate a bit. Going to a new, unknown bar wasn’t anything they had to give much thought to other than if they felt like going. Our black friend was very hesitant. He wanted to join us, but was not happy about the idea of going to a bar he had never heard of. He was the only one to ask what type of place it was. What he needed to know was if there would likely be any jerks who would hassle him just for being black. Unfortunately those concerns came from bad past experiences. So one advantage of being white is being able to go into an unknown bar on a popular street, in a nice part of town, and not worry about being picked on unfairly. My black friend is at a disadvantage in that he does have to worry about being picked on unfairly in a new place. I am not getting how my advantage is linked to his disadvantage. And I don’t see how my not linking the two would show I have invented a subtle way to convince myself that race it not a problem in America. So using my example, could you explain that for me? I just don’t see how the study came to the conclusion it did. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/57 "2006-09-06T19:41:11Z")
> [@Grits and Hard Toast](#): > > So one advantage of being white is being able to go into an unknown bar on a popular street, in a nice part of town, and not worry about being picked on unfairly. My black friend is at a disadvantage in that he does have to worry about being picked on unfairly in a new place. Why do you call being able to go into a bar without worrying about being bothered an advantage? ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/58 "2006-09-06T19:43:09Z")
And after reading your post, I get what’s going on. Typical knee-jerk defensiveness. You’re not asking how they’re linked, you’re asking how is it your fault. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/59 "2006-09-06T21:10:00Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > And after reading your post, I get what’s going on. Typical knee-jerk defensiveness. You’re not asking how they’re linked, you’re asking how is it your fault. It would appear that the jerking knee is on your leg. Nothing in the comments to which you are reacting could qualify as “defensive” or “not my fault.” Advantage and disadvantage would generally (in my experience) relate to the ability to engage in an activity or receive a benefit beyond the typical. There is nothing atypical about white people simply choosing to walk into a restaurant or bar without encountering a problem. Since access is expected by and for whites (who still make up the majority of people in the country), there is no special benefit they receive for being white. If there were no people in the country except whites, they would receive exactly the same treatment. (Out in various rural communities where the only inhabitants are the descendants of European settlers (the indigenous people having been removed and no others having yet settled in the same place), that exact situation applies.) So, while there is a disadvantage to being perceived as different, that disadvantage is not really counterbalanced by any advantage (_extra_ benefit). ---
**Author:** ![Grits\_and\_Hard\_Toast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Grits\_and\_Hard\_Toast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grits_and_Hard_Toast)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522/60 "2006-09-06T22:06:09Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > And after reading your post, I get what’s going on. Typical knee-jerk defensiveness. You’re not asking how they’re linked, you’re asking how is it your fault. By your insulting response to my asking for an explanation of something I admit I don’t understand, I should probably not even bother replying, but I will try one more time. You with the face asked this: Quote: Originally Posted by you with the face So I’m wondering what type of disadvantages the white people surveyed believe black people have to contend with due to their race. Perhaps if you name some probable ones, I can show you how these disadvantages ultimately translate into white advantage. So I thought of how I would answer the survey, without really knowing how it was worded, I attempted to give an example of a disadvantage I feel black people have to deal with today. Here is another recent example, and what also came to mind when I read the question about whether I think I have any advantages being white and do black people have any disadvantages. A white friend is considering moving to my town and had a real concern that although he would be able to do whatever he wanted here, his black wife and mixed child might not be welcome in some places. I hate that he even had to ask my opinion on that subject, and I hated that I had to answer that yes, there were some parts of town that might be a problem. An advantage I feel I have by being white is that most places in the country I would want visit or live, or eat in, or shop at, I am able to without worrying the other people there won’t want me there based on my skin color. In some areas I don’t think that is true for black people and puts them at a real disadvantage. So in using those examples I am trying to go back and trace how my advantage is linked to others disadvantage. And I don’t get it. And in rereading my previous post, I don’t see anything that could seen as defensive or in anyway that I am asking how the situation is my fault. Would you please explain what you read that led you to those conclusions. I must be missing something very obvious here, and would like to know what it is. On preview, I see Tomndebb uses a different definition, “Advantage and disadvantage would generally (in my experience) relate to the ability to engage in an activity or receive a benefit beyond the typical.” I was looking at it more as an advantage over the others, not as an advantage on its own. I think that is often the problem with trying to analyze studies like this one. When you can’t see what the actual questions are, it leads to many different intepretations. I would have to rethink my answers using that other definition and perhaps I will get what it is I am missing here. Thank you for your input Tomndebb. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-study-on-whiteness/371522.md?page=4)