# New Testament Gospel Authors' Religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 25, 2002, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-testament-gospel-authors-religion/125446 "2002-08-25T02:54:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2002, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-testament-gospel-authors-religion/125446/21 "2002-08-25T20:35:33Z")
To WV: The debates about the Catholic Church are lengthy and believe me, all the questions have been asked and answered since the beginning of time. Protestants (or shall I say “non-Catholic Christians”) will disagree with whatever a Catholic says. But the HISTORY of the Catholic Church is traced back to Jesus, when he renamed Simon to Peter. Jesus gave the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven to Peter, and the Catholic Church says that Peter was the first Pope. There is ample Scriptural support for this teaching, but again, YMMV if you are not Catholic. ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2002, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-testament-gospel-authors-religion/125446/22 "2002-08-25T21:19:59Z")
Peter was a Jew. cf Acts chapter 10:28; Matthew was also, probably, being named Matthew/Levi cf Matthew 9:19/Mk 2:14; also, cf the council called in Acts 15…all pretty clear that the adherents up till then were predominantly, if not all, Jews. Can’t help on Mark or Luke. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2002, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-testament-gospel-authors-religion/125446/23 "2002-08-25T22:38:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by VOW \* > **The lineage of Popes traces an unbroken line from Peter to the present day John Paul II.** Unbroken if you don’t get into the messy periods of competing Popes and “anti-Popes”. ---
**Author:** ![WV\_Woman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@WV\_Woman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WV_Woman)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-testament-gospel-authors-religion/125446/24 "2002-08-26T15:21:22Z")
**Were the Gospel authors, i.e., Mark, Matthews, Luke and John Jewish before they wrote the Gospels?** All but Luke were, yes. You can pretty much take it to the bank that John was, considering he was Jesus’ brother. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-testament-gospel-authors-religion/125446/25 "2002-08-26T16:00:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WV\_Woman \* > \*\ ***Were the Gospel authors, i.e., Mark, Matthews, Luke and John Jewish before they wrote the Gospels?** > > All but Luke were, yes. > > You can pretty much take it to the bank that John was, considering he was Jesus’ brother. \*\* John, the Apostle, was NOT the brother of Jesus. He was the brother of the Apostle James, and the son of Zebedee. He was not related to Jesus. John the Baptist WAS the cousin of Jesus, as his mother, Elizabeth, was the cousin of Mary - Now, both John the Baptist and John the Apostle were Jews. John the Apostle has traditionally been given credit for writing the Gospel of John, the Book of Reveleation, and three of the epistles, but there’s some disagreement as to whether he really did. It’s worth noting that the gospel of John is the one that keeps referring to “the Jews,” as if they were a completely different group from Christians. Would John the Apostle, who was a Jew himself, have spoken of “the Jews” as if they were an alien race he wasn’t part of? I suspect not. That’s a phrase that would be used by either a Gentile Christian (perhaps a Greek convert) or a second-generation Christian who had grown up not adhering to Jewish customs and traditions. - Bear a few things in mind: first, ALL the earleist Christians were Jews. Even after the resurrection of Jesus, Peter and the Twelve still thought of themselves as Jews, still went to the Temple, still followed the kosher laws, etc. And at first, they preached almost exclusively to other Jews (they converted only a few pagans, like Cornelius). Only after Saul (Paul) became a Christian and started proclaiming the Word all over the known world did Christianity really take off. And for a long time, this resulted in tension within the Church. THe big question was, “Well, are we still Jews? Is the covenant with Abraham still in effect? If so, pagans who become Christian have to become Jews first, right?” Naturally, Gentile Christians weren’t keen on this idea. So, even in the early Church, there were signs of schism between Christianity and Jewish tradition. Now, when the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans (around 68 AD, I think), the early Christians took this as a sign that the end of the world was about to happen. Mark’s Gospel, probably the first, takes the tone that, “Jesus is about to return! Hurry up, all you Jews, embrace his teachings, and repent before he arrives.” Matthew’s gospel comes a little later… and his gospel reflects what was happening in the Jewish community. Needless to say, most Jews did NOT become Christian in the aftermath of the Temple’s collapse. Rather, led by the Pharisees, Jews began the process of reformulating their religion. Eventually, they came up with the Talmud (still the basis for most Jewish worship and philosophy today). Jewish Christians were horrified at seeing the Pharisees take the lead in reorganizing Jewish thought. Matthew’s gospel was, in many ways, an attempt to convince Jews that Jesus was the fulfillment of God’s covenant with Abraham, and that the Pharisees were steering them wrong. Luke’s gospel comes a little later, and it’s the work of a Greek who had come from paganism to Christianity without becoming a Jew in between. While the stories and sayings it includes are almost the same as those in Mark and Matthew (that’s why Mark, Matthew and Luke are called “synoptic”), Luke has a slightly different slant. To him, Jesus stands alone in human history, and his place in Jewish history is of lesser significance. Finally, there’s John, PROBABLY the last of the four gospels to be written. By the time John was written (most sources say the Gospel was written around 90 AD), two major developments have occurred: 1. The overwhelming majority of Christians are now Gentiles. 2. The overwhelming majority of Jews embraced the Pharisees and their Talmud as their new spiritual guides, and shunned Jesus. So, even though there are still many Jewish Christians, most Jews now regard Christianity as a weird Goyish cult, and most Christians now regard Jews as “stiff-necked” people who rejected their own Messiah, and are no longer worthy of being God’s chosen people. - So, while the Apostle John himself was Jewish, and may have been the source for much of what’s in the Gospel of St. John, the tone and the attitude that gospels takes toward Jews suggests it was written by someone who did NOT regard himself as Jewish… certainly not now, and maybe not ever. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-testament-gospel-authors-religion/125446/26 "2002-08-26T16:05:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WV\_Woman \* > \*\* > You can pretty much take it to the bank that John was, considering he was Jesus’ brother. \*\* No, you’re thinking of James. The John that the Gospel according to John is traditionally credited to is John the Apostle, one of the sons of Zebbedee, brother of James the Apostle (who was a different James than James the brother of Jesus). That John would still be Jewish. However, in spite of the traditional attribution to John the Apostle, some new testament scholars think that the gospel was written by someone else. They note its late date…John was probably the last of the gospels to be written, and that the gospel uses Greek terminology and symbolism. John’s is also the only gospel to refer to “the Jews” as a group against Jesus, suggesting that it was written by a non-Jew for non-Jews. (Other gospels make Jesus’ enemies “the Pharasees” or “the Saducees” or “the Scribes”) ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-testament-gospel-authors-religion/125446/27 "2002-08-26T22:34:24Z")
this page [http://www.bible.org/docs/nt/books/joh/harris/gjohn-02.htm#TopOfPage](http://www.bible.org/docs/nt/books/joh/harris/gjohn-02.htm#TopOfPage) has arguments for Jewish authorship. in previous referral to Peter being Jewish, it needs to be added that his link with authorship of gospels is that tradition ascribes the gospel of mark as being written by mark as a scribe for Peter. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-testament-gospel-authors-religion/125446/28 "2002-08-26T22:36:24Z")
Jewish authorship of book of john, that is. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-testament-gospel-authors-religion/125446/29 "2002-08-27T00:32:00Z")
[sidetrack] On the John/James/Jesus relationship: Perthe gospels, there were TWO Apostles named James. 1. James son of Zebbedee, brother of John; known as “James the Greater” or the Elder, in the tradition of the ancient churches. His younger brother John is usually attributed the Fourth Gospel, 3 Letters and the Revelation. 2. James _“son of Alphaeus”_, a.k.a. “James the Less” , or Younger, in the old church tradition. See Mt. 10,1; Mk. 3, 13; Lk. 6, 12. Neither is identified as Jesus’ brother. **A** “James” is addressed as the brother of Jesus in the gospels, and the traditionalist school attributes to him the “Letter of James” later in the NT. Confusion is to be expected with a very common name (all those “James” were really “Yakov” in the vernacular); just like there are at least 4 simultaneous Marys at one point in the story and specially Magdalene keeps getting conflated with other characters. [/sidetrack] ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-testament-gospel-authors-religion/125446/30 "2002-08-27T01:33:24Z")
VOW, there is also ample scriptural evidence that Peter did not hold the authority that the RCC claims for its popes. Then there’s the whole matter of succession by war, by murder, by bribery, by purchase, etc, the matter of burning christians at the stake, doctrine that is contrary to scripture, etc. Let’s just say I don’t buy the Church’s claims of succession or of being the TRUE church. I know this isn’t the right place to discuss it, but if you want to start a thread (for reasonable friendly exchange of facts, not the usual venom that goes with Protestant vs. Catholic debate), I’d be glad to participate. Sorry for the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Motog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@Motog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Motog)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-testament-gospel-authors-religion/125446/31 "2002-08-27T03:13:18Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\* No, you’re thinking of James. The John that the Gospel according to John is traditionally credited to is John the Apostle, one of the sons of Zebbedee, brother of James the Apostle (who was a different James than James the brother of Jesus). That John would still be Jewish._\* > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by JRDelirious_ > **"James" is addressed as the brother of Jesus in the gospels, and the traditionalist school attributes to him the “Letter of James” later in the NT. .** Ummm… at least according to RCC thought, Jesus had **no** brothers and sisters (although there are a number of passages in the New Testament that appear to contradict this, notably Matthew 13:55-56). So it might be best to preface such statements by saying that according to [_your brand of christianity_], James was the brother of Jesus. Cecil addresses the whole question [here](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a990730a.html/) Not trying to start a debate. Just suggesting that, in a discussion such as this, we need to put the appropriate qualifiers on our statements and recognise that not everybody takes the same view - otherwise we might as well just ask the Mods to move this to GD right now. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-testament-gospel-authors-religion/125446/32 "2002-08-27T12:48:02Z")
**Motog** , that is why I said a third James, to whom the Epistle is attributed, is _addressed_ as the “brother of Jesus” in the gospels. Even if he’s not a brother, he is addressed that way. ---
**Author:** ![Motog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@Motog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Motog)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-testament-gospel-authors-religion/125446/33 "2002-08-28T00:58:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JRDelirious \* > \*\ ***Motog** , that is why I said a third James, to whom the Epistle is attributed, is _addressed_ as the “brother of Jesus” in the gospels. Even if he’s not a brother, he is addressed that way. \*\* Point taken ---
**Author:** ![mortman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6f9a4e/32.png) [@mortman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mortman)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-testament-gospel-authors-religion/125446/34 "2002-08-28T01:14:34Z")
I checked with a Jesuit with my question: Were the Gospel authors, i.e., Mark, Matthew, Luke and John Jewish \> before they wrote the Gospels? His reply is: Sure! Isn’t it obvious that Jesus himself and all of his first disciples, including the apostles and evangelists, were Jews? By the way, they were still Jews even _after_ coming to believe in Jesus! “Christians” were those Jews who believed that Jesus was the Christ (or Messiah). Only gradually (see Acts 10, or Paul’s missions in Acts 13-28) did non-Jewish Gentiles come to join the Christian community. ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-testament-gospel-authors-religion/125446/35 "2002-08-28T15:03:35Z")
To **Joe\_Cool** : I get beat up regularly defending Catholicism in another forum. Let’s just say the story varies according to the story-teller. E-mail me if you want a link to the Christianity forum where I engage in lively apologetics. ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-testament-gospel-authors-religion/125446/36 "2002-08-28T17:09:50Z")
Mortman, While I don’t disagree with your Jesuit friend that Jesus and his first disciples were Jews, remember, the gospels were written after the missions of Paul, so there’s nothing to keep the gospel writers from being non-Jews, and as I’ve mentioned Luke probably wasn’t a Jew (and John may not have been.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-testament-gospel-authors-religion/125446.md?page=1)