# New twist in the gun rights movement **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2024, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113 "2024-08-23T20:09:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/66 "2024-09-08T04:55:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The Founders all thought slavery was going away, in fact they never even mentioned it by name in the Constitution. 3/5 compromise. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/67 "2024-09-08T05:00:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The Founders all thought slavery was going away, in fact they never even mentioned it by name in the Constitution. This must be the first time I heard that reasoning for its lack of mention. From where to you get that? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/68 "2024-09-08T05:36:49Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > 3/5 compromise. Yep, and so? Is the word “slave” mentioned there? See here > [@Just want to make sure everyone is clear that the Bill of Rights were the People’s rights, not the states, not the state militia. (Gun related)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/75): > > We also wouldn’t be having this discussion if the 2nd amendment had solely said “The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”. But it doesn’t. Only the Second Amendment includes language which its proponents would like to simply ignore. “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state” has meaning. It is best understood in the context of the time. It preserves a state right. Amendments have been incorporated to the states, but on a case… where even Babale agreed with me- > [@Just want to make sure everyone is clear that the Bill of Rights were the People’s rights, not the states, not the state militia. (Gun related)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-want-to-make-sure-everyone-is-clear-that-the-bill-of-rights-were-the-people-s-rights-not-the-states-not-the-state-militia-gun-related/1006468/62): > > At the time of the Revolution, @DrDeth is in fact correct. Most of the Founding Fathers assumed that slavery was on its way out, so rather than tackle the issue which stands in opposition to the foundational principles of the new Republic, they just ignored it, and agreed to bind the federal government in ways that would prevent it from abolishing slavery. > > Two developments which they didn’t see coming occurred and entranched slavery in the Southern states: > > 1. The invention of the Cotton Gin gave slavery a few more decades of economic viability > 2. The South developed antebellum culture which made slavery an integral part of the southern identify > > Neither of those things had happened yet at the time of the Revolution. So,this has been proven, and I am not gonna go over it again. The Founding Fathers actually thought Slavery was going to go away on it’s own. Yes, they were wrong- the cotton gin came around and the number of slaves in the USA more than quadruped, making many Southern slave owners filthy rich. Suddenly slavery was a Great idea again- because it made White men rich. It wasnt even very long- 50 years or so, until the Civil war. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/69 "2024-09-08T05:38:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yep, and so? Is the word “slave” mentioned there? Really? What do you think it was about? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/70 "2024-09-08T05:40:36Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Really? What do you think it was about? Did you read my post? It was a compromise so the South would sign on to the Constitution. The word “slavery” was specifically not mentioned as the Founders thought it was dying out- which- it should have. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/71 "2024-09-08T05:41:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So,this has been proven, and I am not gonna go over it again. Another poster agreeing with you makes it established fact, so you don’t have to mention it again? I’m sorry, but when people ask for cites, that is not exactly what they are looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/72 "2024-09-08T05:45:34Z")
So, they didn’t use the word “slavery” when it was explicitly about slavery? That’s the important point? ---
**Author:** ![Ghostwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a88e4f/32.png) [@Ghostwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ghostwire)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/73 "2024-09-08T05:51:58Z")
The root cause is the fact that the ATF, CIA, FBI, Homeland spend almost no time breaking up criminalized gun rings so that the crime rate actually drops…legal gun owners shouldn’t be an issue and are not for the most part. But your comment on militias is important because that it what the government really cares about…Their scared stupid by the fact that they know it’s in our history and constitutional right to throw off the old guard if they fail in their duty, which they have. As far as public violence they could care less about people hurting others. If these agencies would do their job we would have less crime period. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/74 "2024-09-08T05:58:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Another poster agreeing with you makes it established fact, so you don’t have to mention it again? I’m sorry, but when people ask for cites, that is not exactly what they are looking for. And I gave cites. Read them. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So, they didn’t use the word “slavery” when it was explicitly about slavery? It isnt. Mostly but other people were included- read it- > **[Three-fifths compromise | Definition, Purpose, & History](https://www.britannica.com/topic/three-fifths-compromise)** > > Three-fifths compromise, compromise agreement between the delegates from the Northern and the Southern states at the United States Constitutional Convention (1787) that three-fifths of the enslaved population would be counted for determining direct... _Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three-fifths of all other Persons_ _It should be noted that neither the word slave nor the word slavery appears in this clause or anywhere in the unamended Constitution._ So indians not taxed and those bound to service for a term of years- that last was fairly common in the free states. And slaves. Mostly slaves, but there were not that many slaves then. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/75 "2024-09-08T06:01:22Z")
From your cite: “…three-fifths of the enslaved population…” I’ll leave it at that since I think we’ve gone way off track for this thread. If you want to start a new one about it I’d participate. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/76 "2024-09-08T10:38:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > there were not that many slaves then. As far as I can tell about 20% of the population was enslaved. That includes the states with very small enslaved populations and states where 30-40% of their residents were enslaved. The idea that slavery was unimportant to the slave owners who wrote the Constitution is absurd. The unamended Constitution also doesn’t mention marriage, I guess that institution was on its way out as well? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/77 "2024-09-08T19:17:42Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > As far as I can tell about 20% of the population was enslaved. Around that, but after the cotton gin and big money from King Cotton, the number of slaves quadrupled. In the NYT and I think The Atlantic, a couple of authors pushed the idea that everything in pre Civil war America was slavery based. declaration of Independence- slavery, since the UK was starting to get rid of slaves. Constitution- slavery. Bill of rights- slavery 2nd ad- slavery Police- "slavery, we would have police in America if it was for slavery and slave patrols, so we need to defund the Police, since the whole police idea was based on slavery. " 🙄 Texas independence- slavery And finally they got one right- Civil War - slavery. Monomaniacal idiots. No, slavery has not critical in America until the early 1800s, and the cotton gin. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/78 "2024-09-08T22:31:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > > > As far as I can tell about 20% of the population was enslaved. > > Around that, but after the cotton gin and big money from King Cotton, the number of slaves quadrupled. Sure, but the free population more than quadrupled. By 1860 enslaved people were 12.5% of the population. How is that in increase in dependence on slavery? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/79 "2024-09-08T23:11:43Z")
Unless a straightforward connection between the issues can be established, I suggest the slavery debate be split to another thread. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/80 "2024-09-08T23:32:29Z")
The idea was to conflated anything and everything the writers didnt like with slavery, which of course we all accept was wrong and evil. Police? Slavery. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2024, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/81 "2024-09-09T17:13:17Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > They then reckon that maybe having access to firearms saved their butts and decide that maybe the 2nd Amendment has some things going for it. A well-regulated militia did have something going for it back in the early 1800’s, when the founders were deathly afraid of a standing professional army. The spirit of the 2A back then was that every able-bodied eligible male citizen could own a musket. Let’s allow citizens to own long-guns for hunting, target-shooting, and home defense. But getting a handgun should be much harder than it currently is. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2024, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/82 "2024-09-09T17:33:01Z")
I’ll say this about the federal Constitution and rights in general: For the most part the federal Constitution was originally a workaday charter spelling out the structure and duties of the federal government, and how the states were to relate to it and to each other under it. Very little was originally said about natural rights at all other than a few references to banning practices from English/British law that were considered noxious, like bills of attainder or ex post facto laws. The whole idea of the Constitution being a document enshrining freedom comes from two things: the inclusion of a Bill of Rights after the fact, and that (at least in theory) the federal government was to be one of limited authority. The Federalists argued that codifying rights was either unnecessary or futile: if they were upheld they were upheld, and if they weren’t a piece of paper wasn’t going save the day. Although how they reconciled a theoretical uprising by the People in defense of a right with the sort of authority-worship that produced the Alien And Sedition Acts, I don’t know. > [@survinga](#): > > Let’s allow citizens to own long-guns for hunting, target-shooting, and home defense. But getting a handgun should be much harder than it currently is. Laws against “concealed” carry seem to originally have meant something closer to “concealable” guns– like anything that could be hidden in a pocket or under a coat instead of honest in-plain-sight long guns. I think the fact that such laws often referred even to the open carry of pistols might speak to this. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2024, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/83 "2024-09-09T19:22:57Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > Let’s allow citizens to own long-guns for hunting, target-shooting, and home defense. But getting a handgun should be much harder than it currently is. This is really getting into a gun control debate. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2024, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/84 "2024-09-10T19:20:24Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > A well-regulated militia did have something going for it back in the early 1800’s, when the founders were deathly afraid of a standing professional army. The spirit of the 2A back then was that every able-bodied eligible male citizen could own a musket. Yes, the idea that we don’t need a standing army if we have we can call up armed civilians should the need arise is ludicrously outdated, and so is the second amendment. The idea that it was meant so that any civilian should be allowed to carry any weapon at any time was basically invented by a lwa student in 1960, and popularized by NRA in the late 70’s after they were taken over by the crazies in 1977. Here is a great article about it. > **[How the NRA Rewrote the Second Amendment](https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/how-nra-rewrote-second-amendment)** > > The Founders never intended to create an unregulated individual right to a gun. Today, millions believe they did. Here’s how it happened. Honestly though, even if this works its way up and eventually the supremes decide that any ban on any firearm is unconstitutional, it impact on life in the US will be fairly minimal. Random mass shootings will be more deadly but they are a minuscule fraction of the toll of gun violence in America. Police might be under a bit more of a threat, with the result that they too will be given access to military style automatic weaponry. The right will stop arguing about whether an AR-15 is an assault weapon. But otherwise that’s about it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2024, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/85 "2024-09-10T19:48:29Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > The idea that it was meant so that any civilian should be allowed to carry any weapon at any time Yeah, a tiny minority think that, but most gun owners accept that every Right in the bill of Rights has reasonable limitations. The 2nd as well as the 1st. And, the NRA turned into a gun rights org due to states and cities starting to put harsh restrictions on guns. If you read Heller, the Justices even specified a long list of general exceptions to possessing a gun. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113.md?page=5)