# New twist in the gun rights movement **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2024, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113 "2024-08-23T20:09:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2024, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/126 "2024-09-12T22:01:46Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > The problem then is how do you keep a government from becoming as great an evil as the things it was supposed to prevent? Voting. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2024, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/127 "2024-09-12T23:20:24Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Not only does high government office attract the worst sorts of egotists, but even worse are the ideologues, the control freaks with a Plan that just requires that everyone get with the program, or else. Maybe so, but “high government office” is just a small handful of people, who can’t do anything without the consent of many thousand of government workers, soldiers, cops and so on, who are the friends and family members of the people that these rulers would be oppressing. You want a successful revolution? Don’t shoot the army - convince the army to take your side. Just look at history. French revolution? Government turned against the king. Russian revolution? Army turned against the Tsar. Even the American revolution wasn’t a case of civilians against government, it was one level of government (the colonies’ elected officials and militias) against another. You start shooting at government workers, you’ll lose, but if you convince them that their loyalties should be to their fellow citizens rather than some dictator, you might have a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2024, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/128 "2024-09-12T23:32:46Z")
Also, “the ideologues, the control freaks with a Plan that just requires that everyone get with the program, or else” describes _plenty_ of people with guns, who think they can use those guns to force their great Plan on everyone else. There’s absolutely no reason to assume that armed people are going to fight against tyranny, instead of _for_ it. If anything it’s going to be much more the latter, given that we _are_ talking about people who think they can solve political issues with killing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2024, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/129 "2024-09-12T23:37:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > There’s absolutely no reason to assume that armed people are going to fight against tyranny, instead of _for_ it. American history. Mind you, sure, that doesnt mean it will always go that way, but it has in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2024, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/130 "2024-09-12T23:42:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > American history. Which has been _full_ of armed right wingers [terrorizing and killing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre) people they don’t like. And very few examples of people “defending their rights” with guns, _if_ any at all. And not only was the revolution fought by armies and not random armed thugs, ask the slaves how much freedom they got from that. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2024, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/131 "2024-09-13T00:05:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Which has been _full_ of armed right wingers [terrorizing and killing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre) people they don’t like. Which never succeeded. or went anywhere. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And very few examples of people “defending their rights” with guns, _if_ any at all. The Revolutionary War. The War of 1812. The Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2024, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/132 "2024-09-13T00:06:45Z")
Do you mean that thing the Republicans are trying to prevent? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2024, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/133 "2024-09-13T00:08:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Which never succeeded. or went anywhere. On the contrary they succeeded very well, they imposed Jim Crow on the South for one example. And they’ve been effective at terrorizing abortion providers to the point of making abortions near-impossible in many places. > The Revolutionary War. The War of 1812. The Civil War. All fought with _armies._ ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2024, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/134 "2024-09-13T00:13:53Z")
Also, I’m not sure bringing up the Civil War as an example of “resisting tyranny” is the best move for a pro-gun debater - it was, after all, the _south_ that was complaining about tyranny when they started that war. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2024, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/135 "2024-09-13T02:13:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m not sure bringing up the Civil War as an example of “resisting tyranny” is the best move for a pro-gun debater - it was, after all, the _south_ that was complaining about tyranny when they started that war. Because it demonstrated that a militant armed minority of the country as a whole– the “warlords” that were complained about upthread– can’t get away with claiming that not getting their way is “tyranny”. It’s perhaps telling that the supermajorities required to pass some things at the federal level– two-thirds or more– is about the same supermajority necessary to win a civil war. And for the Union to win required that the mass of men in the North supported, or at least acquiesced to, being called to arms to fight against the militant southern fire-eaters. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2024, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/136 "2024-09-13T02:14:57Z")
Sounds like a long-winded way to say, “…and the South lost.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2024, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/137 "2024-09-13T03:00:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > All fought with _armies._ _Militia armies._ The Revolutionary war was fought mostly with militia, and so was 1812, and a lot of them fought for the North in the Civil war. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2024, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/138 "2024-09-13T03:26:44Z")
No? The militia was regarded as pretty useless. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2024, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/139 "2024-09-13T03:36:37Z")
Yeah, once Lafayette, von Stuben and Washington trained some regulars- but for the first year or so- Militia was all we had. And they brought their own guns. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2024, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/140 "2024-09-13T03:43:31Z")
And weren’t the ones who won the war. Not that it matters much, this isn’t the 1700s anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2024, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/141 "2024-09-13T04:47:07Z")
Militia was all we had, and they were worse than useless, which is why all that training was required. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2024, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/142 "2024-09-13T05:15:45Z")
Without the militia, there never would have been an America. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2024, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/143 "2024-09-13T05:17:43Z")
if we had gone the other route earlier, on the other hand… ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2024, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/144 "2024-09-13T10:50:49Z")
I’m always amused at the idea that an armed populace will stand up to a tyrannical government. When the government pauses to consider their strategy in assaulting a heavily armed civilian compound, it’s mostly to figure out how to take the civilians down without killing them. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2024, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113/145 "2024-09-13T19:56:46Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > When the government pauses to consider their strategy in assaulting a heavily armed civilian compound, it’s mostly to figure out how to take the civilians down without killing them. Mainly because as things now stand the government has to care about public opinion. And why ultimately should they care? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-twist-in-the-gun-rights-movement/1006113.md?page=8)