# New Usama Tape: real, important, he's alive?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2003, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423 "2003-02-11T20:50:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423/21 "2003-02-11T22:03:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lout \* > \*\*The deletion of the sentence about bin Laden calling for Saddam’s ouster is significant because it undermines Powell’s lie about a nexus between Iraq and bin Laden … The government is LYING to the world, and the media is helping. \*\* Hold on now – what gives the tape any special authority? Perhaps it’s a red herring. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423/22 "2003-02-11T22:03:39Z")
**Beagle** , you don’t happen to have the original article in memory somewhere, do you? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423/23 "2003-02-11T22:05:25Z")
Makes me wonder if the media were _cough_ influenced to revise their reporting. Scary stuff. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423/24 "2003-02-11T22:06:04Z")
**Beagle** , if you’re using IE, disconnect your network, click “go offline” in your Options, then go back to the page via your history (otherwise it’ll auto-update). Personally I think some people are maybe getting a wee bit paranoid… Check back to my ABC link tomorrow and see if the passage that I C&Ped is still there. If it isn’t, I’ll retract my paranoia assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423/25 "2003-02-11T22:10:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SenorBeef \* > \*\ ***Beagle** , you don’t happen to have the original article in memory somewhere, do you? \*\* In fact, yes, here is the relevant part, meaning I cut it off when they changed the subject. > [@](#): > > THE SPEAKER on the tape, aired on the al-Jazeera Arab satellite station, described al-Qaida fighters in Afghanistan withstanding heavy U.S. bombardment by hiding in trenches. > “With all the might of the enemy, they were unable to defeat us and take over that position. … We hope that our brothers in Iraq will do the same as we did,” said the voice. > The speaker said the United States was waging a psychological war against Iraq and urged Muslims to stage suicide attacks on Americans. > At the same time, the message also called on Iraqis to rise up and oust Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, who is a secular leader. > He said Muslims who go along with the United States in a war against Iraq were infidels and should be seen as targets of a jihad, or holy war. > “We are following with great concern the preparations of the crusaders to launch war on the former capital of Muslims and to install a puppet government,” said the speaker. > The statement said the attack on Iraq was being led by the United States to tip the regional balance of power in favor of Israel. > “Fight these despots. I remind you that victory comes only from God,” the audio statement said. > Analysts familiar with bin Laden’s voice said the audio tape seemed to be authentic. > “When you listen to the tape, you can tell it’s Osama bin Laden’s voice,” Yasser Thabet, a broadcast editor at al-Jazeera. > He also said the tape appears to be authentic because the television station got it through the same means as previous bin Laden statements. He did not elaborate. > Advertisement > > ``` > Al-Jazeera has often received audio tapes and statements said to come from bin Laden, blamed for the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on U.S. cities. > Before the tape even aired, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell told a Senate panel of its existence and said it would show why the world needs to be concerned about Iraqi ties to terrorism. > Powell said he had read a transcript of “what bin Laden — or who we believe to be bin Laden” would be saying, “where once again he speaks to the people of Iraq and talks about their struggle and how he is in partnership with Iraq.” > “This nexus between terrorists and states that are developing weapons of mass destruction can no longer be looked away from and ignored,” Powell told the Senate Budget Committee. > In the past Al Jazeera has angered the Bush administration by broadcasting statements from bin Laden, blamed by Washington as the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. The United States has also said in the past it is not sure if bin Laden is alive or dead. > However, a statement surfacing now could bolster the White House case for war with Iraq. > The United States has accused Iraq of links with al Qaida, a charge Saddam denied earlier this month. > > ``` Maybe this link will work. [I doubt it](http://www.msnbc.com/news/842500.asp?0cv=CA01#BODY). ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423/26 "2003-02-11T22:12:20Z")
[Look at this weirdness:](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030211/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_iraq_247) > [@](#): > > \*\*Powell said he read a transcript of “what bin Laden — or who we believe to be bin Laden” will be saying on the Al-Jazeera Arab satellite station later Tuesday, “where once again he speaks to the people of Iraq and talks about their struggle and how he is in partnership with Iraq.” > But Al-Jazeera chief editor Ibrahim Hilal told The Associated Press his station has no such tape. And Powell, when asked by a reporter to comment on the station’s denial, declined to do so. > “Be patient, it’s coming,” Powell said > \*\* That article is from TODAY at 12:06 CST. So three hours ago, Al-Jazeera DENIED even having that tape, yet Powell had a transcript!?!? ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423/27 "2003-02-11T22:17:49Z")
> [@](#): > > The fighting should be in the name of God only, not in the name of national ideologies, nor to seek victory for the ignorant governments that rule all Arab states, including Iraq." “Do not fight to seek victory for the ignorant government of Iraq.” - yeah, you can just **tell** they’re buddies… [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle\_east/2751019.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2751019.stm) ---
**Author:** ![TJ555\_The\_Golfer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/41988e/32.png) [@TJ555\_The\_Golfer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TJ555_The_Golfer)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423/28 "2003-02-11T22:27:04Z")
Not to question Beagle, but is the missing statement in other translations of the tape? ---
**Author:** ![lout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@lout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lout)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423/29 "2003-02-11T22:28:20Z")
Thank you for preserving the original MSNBC article. In my view, the deletion of bin Laden’s statement calling for the ouster of Saddam is hugely significant, not only for what it tells us about the relationship between al Queda and Iraq, but also for what it tells us about Bush’s fabricated justifications for invading Iraq. It seems clear that the “nexus” between MSNBC and the US Government is far more intimate than that between Saddam and bin Laden. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423/30 "2003-02-11T22:31:04Z")
Someone on CNN Headline news just claimed “Osama claimed to be brothers with Saddam Hussein” - I think due to their shared enemy, but the exact quote slipped from my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423/31 "2003-02-11T22:35:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Attrayant \* > \*\*Something odd: > > > [@](#): > > > > Calling on Muslims to “fight those who believe in Satan,” the voice quoted the Koran as saying “you shouldn’t take the Jews and the Christians as friends and whoever helps them becomes one of them.” > > This sounds more like a strained interpretation rather than a quote. Does anybody know what verse is being “quoted”? \*\* “O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.” [Qur’an 005.051](http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.051) ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423/32 "2003-02-11T22:38:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lout \* > \*\*Thank you for preserving the original MSNBC article. > > In my view, the deletion of bin Laden’s statement calling for the ouster of Saddam is hugely significant, not only for what it tells us about the relationship between al Queda and Iraq, but also for what it tells us about Bush’s fabricated justifications for invading Iraq. > > It seems clear that the “nexus” between MSNBC and the US Government is far more intimate than that between Saddam and bin Laden. \*\* ## I left my computer on for the historical record - or out of habit. As for any questioning of my motives, you various scaliwags. As usual, I had an obscure interest in part of the article which relates to another thread. Hardly worth cutting and pasting an article on a message board, posting a link to it, and making the quotes up. I’m not a deceitful moron. I just posted first. I literallly got the story as it was being released. I think that the translator was interpreting the statements of Usama to mean that he supported the ouster of Saddam. I don’t think Usama came out and said it. I think Usama was advocating a strong fight against the United States for Islamic reasons, not to support Saddam. That is not, IMO, so much as support for an ouster but general contempt. But, since I don’t speak Arabic, I can’t be sure. I did watch the whole address, switching between the news channels. ---
**Author:** ![TJ555\_The\_Golfer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/41988e/32.png) [@TJ555\_The\_Golfer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TJ555_The_Golfer)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423/33 "2003-02-11T22:46:57Z")
Beagle, I hope you don’t think I was questioning your honesty. I was just trying to get conformation. I would like to know if the originial translation was in error or they wanted to change the meaning for other reasons. I don’t see why they would change the translation for other reasons. If bin Laden clearly says oust Saddam, could MSNBC even hope to cover this up? Well, it seems every news station is using this to show a link with Iraq, so maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423/34 "2003-02-11T22:51:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Beagle, I hope you don’t think I was questioning your honesty Not really. That was quite odd. I went to the same story later and it had changed. I’ve always liked the word “scaliwags.” ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423/35 "2003-02-11T22:54:12Z")
The lefty blogosphere is buzzing about the change in the MSNBC article. [Eschaton has a picture](http://atrios.blogspot.com/2003_02_09_atrios_archive.html#90309856) Not only does this underscore the mendacity of the Bush case for Saddam Bin Laden, but it also shows how much power that administration has over the news we read. Liberal media indeed… ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423/36 "2003-02-11T22:57:56Z")
Upon reflection: Usama wants the Iraqis to fight the United States. He hopes that he can force the US to inflict large numbers of civilian casualties on ordinary Iraqis who fight back. After the war, in the rubble and chaos, he can step in and fill a void. He thrives in chaos, disorder, and failed states. Usama’s worst fear is that the US scores a quick, mostly bloodless, victory over Saddam and actually starts to turn Iraq around. Saddam and Usama share a pan-Arab philosophy. Saddam is secular, Usama is religious. They hate and need each other right now. Both of them share two common goals: one, an expansionistic Arab mega-state, and, two, the destruction of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423/37 "2003-02-11T23:08:52Z")
How did I forget #3, the destrucion of Israel? I think this conspiracy stuff will turn out to be due to the MSNBC translator being asked to analyze the overall impact of the address and not some attempt to withdraw key information. Logically: the majority of the speech deals with the fighting the US and defending Iraq. Usama does not want a quick overthrow of Saddam, unless he can guarantee a long costly war to follow. ---
**Author:** ![lout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@lout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lout)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423/38 "2003-02-11T23:21:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Upon reflection: Usama wants the Iraqis to fight the United States. He hopes that he can force the US to inflict large numbers of civilian casualties on ordinary Iraqis who fight back. After the war, in the rubble and chaos, he can step in and fill a void. He thrives in chaos, disorder, and failed states. bin Laden wants that, but you omitted something: bin Laden wants America to invade Iraq and to take Iraq’s oil, because that, like mass killing, will radicalize muslims. That is significant because if, as I believe, America’s real reason for invading Iraq is to take Iraqi oil, America is playing into bin Laden’s hands, and Bush’s proferred justification – the “war on terror” – is not only a lie, but the exact opposite of the truth. bin Laden wants Bush to overthrow Saddam, kill many Iraqis and occupy Iraq and take its oil, because all of that enhances bin Laden’s credibility, therefore his power. But even more disturbing than the fact that Bush is playing bin Laden’s game (after breaking his vow to “get” bin Laden) is the fact that the media has revealed its abject subservience to government power, which ought to be profoundly disturbing to any American. ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423/39 "2003-02-11T23:56:15Z")
Regardless of whether he calls for Saddam’s ouster it’s pretty clear that the tape in no way suggests that Saddam and al-Quaeda are working together; quite the opposite to the extent that he calls Saddam an “infidel”. By claiming that it does the administration is undermining its own credibility; not that it has too much left. Here is a nice piece in Slate about the same: [http://slate.msn.com/id/2078437/](http://slate.msn.com/id/2078437/) ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423/40 "2003-02-11T23:57:00Z")
“Scal’a’wags” Aye nott spl gud. Oil. I’m sure that oil plays into all politics in the Middle East. Right now, until proven otherwise, I’m going to assume that the US has ideas concerning an “oil trust” for the Iraqi people. I know there are plans to move toward a civilian government. If the oil money is kept, and handed over to a new civilian government, and there is a huge injection of international aid, Iraq could rebound quickly. As much as people claim the US wants a long-term presence in Iraq, I cannot help but think how disasterous that is bound to be. The White House must see that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-usama-tape-real-important-hes-alive/154423.md?page=3)